Can't shake the nitrates!

[KBartley77]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hey guys, I've been checking out your site, real nice. I'll start off by apologizing for what I think is going to be a long post. I've had a 44 gal. hex fish/reef tank for a little over 4 yrs. now. The only way I've learned things other than researching on the web, is by trying and usually failing. First off my nitrates have read between 25-40 ppm for over a year. ammonia 0, nitrite 0, ph 8.3, everything else is fine. For filtration I have a wet/dry filter with bio-balls and a red sea hang on skimmer. I've allways heard bad things about bio-balls so I've tried to clean them about once a month a little at a time as to not shock the tank.Also I've used store bought distilled water for water changes etc., which I have tested for nitrates and it reads 0? But could this still be a problem?I've ordered a ro/di machine so maybe it will help. And by looking around on this site I found that I've been doing one of the dumbest things; my sandbed is about 3 inches thick, well once a month when I would do a water change I would vacuum all the way through the sandbed, thinking "man how does this sand get so dirty?" So I guess I've been removing alot if not all my good bacteria, could this be a cause of my nitrate problem? I would appreciate any advice? Do I need to remove the bio-balls? Do I need a refugium? and what is one? Thanks for taking the time to read this, I'm charging my batteries for my camera so I'll post some pics of my setup in a few hours.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[bjpembo]

the bio balls and the filter media in the wet n dry are probably your biggest problem. they cause nitrates because the bacteria that are needed to break down nitrates live in low oxygen areas and with all the water movement across the balls and filter media that makes lots of oxygen. because of that the nitrogen cycle stops with nitrite being converted to nitrate and then dumped back into your tank. you'd have to clean those things more than monthly to take care of that. my suggestion is to remove them and replace with some live rock, and any filter media just toss, unless your interested in washing it out on a regular basis. personally my approach to reefing is the lazy way, i remove anything that requires extra work ;)

as for disturbing the sand bed thats arguable as far as if it causes problems or not. if your cleaning all of the funk from the sand then thats not a bad thing and probably not the cause. the more likely cause is that when you stir the sand bed around your letting high oxygen water into the lower depths of the sand bed which in turn kills the anoxic bacteria that live there and convert nitrate to nitrogen.

[dakar]

A note on what BJ mentioned about removing the bio-balls, if you decide that is the route you want to go, remove them slowly over a period of time, no more than a 1/4 a week (or more). Reasoning for this is so that the rest of your tank has time to build up the needed bacteria to handle the bioload and replace the bacteria you are removing (the bio balls).

No need for apologies for long posts, they can be far more helpful in getting you an answer that better fits your situation. More info is always better than not enough :)

Last but not least... Welcome Aboard...

[KBartley77]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks for the advice, so you guys think I should remove the bio-balls a little at a time and add live rock, would I need a light on my filter, for the rock? Do they need to be totally submerged?I just really need to find out how to remove the nitrates, would adding another filter such as a canister help? Any advice is appreciated, I'm going to post a few pics, please help, I'll upgrade whatever I need to. ..............Just tried to upload pics said file size was >128,000, I'll try to figure out how to decrease size.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[bjpembo]

the rock should be in the water, continued exposure to air will cause die off and a cycle. adding a canister filter would cause the same thing, a build of detritus that would eventually lead to more nitrates pumping into the system. removing the bio balls, and filter media/floss or whatever and any sponge type filters should lower your nitrates, with or without adding some live rock rubble to replace the bio balls.

[dakar]

The rock should stay submerged, but no light is required. The rocks main purpose is to increase the surface area for the bacteria to grow on. Same thing as in the tank itself.... the rock itself isn't really alive, it's just a rock, but it provides a place for nitrifying bacteria to live.... #ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#Canister filters in general end up nitrate factories. The addition of a refuge and some macro algae would be very beneficial to your system, macros actually feed on nitrates, as well as providing other benefits. #ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#Can you give us some more details on your setup? For instance are you running with just a sump, no sump just the tank... etc... If you get the time, how about filling in your profile info... so if you feel the need to start throwing rocks at me I know which way to duck from #ed_op#IMG src="http://captivereefing.com/richedit/smileys/Happy/3.gif"#ed_cl#

[KBartley77]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Alright found the image resizer so you can see some pics. I have a small sump in the wet/dry but i'd replace the whole system if someone could help me with what I need to do. Dakar I'd never throw rocks at you , but I can't figure out how to find personal info under my profile I'll look for it and update. Hope these pics help.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[KBartley77]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#About to figure this out.#ed_op#IMG alt="image file name: 2k4aea99cac5.jpg" src="http://www.captivereefing.com/richedit/upload/2k4aea99cac5.jpg" border=0#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[KBartley77]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Here's another#ed_op#IMG alt="image file name: 2kb090767bfa.jpg" src="http://www.captivereefing.com/richedit/upload/2kb090767bfa.jpg" border=0#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[bjpembo]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#here's a pic of a drawing for a sump. doesnt have to be exactly like this. of course minus the bioballs and the sand can all be one type, doesnt have to be course and fine, it'll mix anyway. it gives you an idea what to shoot for. it can be made from a 10g tank or from a rubbermaid container or if you have acrylic experience you can make one yourself. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG alt="image file name: 2k87369abba2.gif" src="http://www.captivereefing.com/richedit/upload/2k87369abba2.gif" border=0#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[ramoth41]

Get rid of the bio balls!! We had a sump like yours when our 55 up just place some of your rock in and thats about it!
All a sump really is .. a place to put the skimmer and other stuff like pumps for flow , med if needed, and other things like that. Our sump is pretty basic and not real pretty. All DIY ..Acually the pic of the refuguim sump or a MUD system might work well for ya BUT with a set up like that you do need some light for the plants ect.. not special light but light.
Ours gets light from the tank because of the way the lights hang from the ceiling but it dosen't need light. here is what ours looks like remember NOT PRETTY! but it works! :roll: :D
sarah
PS the denitrator is not hooked cuz the lines come off and blow water all over!
also I labled the fuidized sand filter as the denitrator... soo sorry! DUH

[KBartley77]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Bjpembo, I do have a 10 gallon tank, and I could cut some squaes from acrylic, to make three chambers. A few questions; what does the filtering? And if you numbered the sections in the sump from right to left would it be best to use some "u" tubing to siphon the water from 1 to 2 and from 2 to 3, or is it not necessary?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[bjpembo]

the algae and the DSB is what filters the nitrate, the algae uses it as food and periodic pruning of the algae removes it from the tank. the DSB provides a place for the anoxic bacteria to grow and consume the nitrate converting it to nitrogen.

no need for the u tubes to move from chamber to chamber, the walls should be short enough that the water can flow over them into the next chamber. but make sure you incorporate some baffles to stop the bubbles from reaching the return pump and being pumped back into the tank obscuring your view.

[ramoth41]

Actually .... From what I can see in your pic.. The sump you have now with out the bio balls and with some live rock would do the trick for you. No need to change anything else. I had the same type on my 55... The key is the Biological Filtration!! Basicly it means LOTS of live rock!! to give you a perspctive on how much LR (this is a bit extreem but..lol) We had 200lbs of LR in out 55. Made water changes a breeze!! "Grab the eyedropper Hon.. it's water change day!" :D :D
But the tank was perfect never had a problem EVER because of all that LR .. A little cramped maybe ..... Then the bug struck!! :mrgreen:
Hope that helps..... I'll see if I can find some DIY instuctions for ya!
sarah

[KBartley77]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks ramoth, that would be awesome if I could use my current sump, but how would I submerge the live rock, wouldn't the water just trickle over them like the bio-balls, or do you put them on the bottom and run your water level higher.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Reptoreef]

As long as your LR or even bioballs remain submerged, you're eliminating the "wet/dry" eliment... what causes the nitrates is the build up of bacteria feeding on the ammonia and releasing nitrates. These bacteria need an awesome amount of o2, but remain wet. Ergo the denitrification factory is in production. As for your current sump... modify it to operate as the one BJ left in that prior post.

Jason

[ramoth41]

here are a few ideas for sumps...
was out on a covert mission to find the elusive "aump monster!"

[ramoth41]

heres the other..
I got these off a DIY forum at the About SW site..
sarah

[Limpit]

<DIV> but how would I submerge the live rock, wouldn't the water just trickle over them like the bio-balls, or do you put them on the bottom and run your water level higher.</DIV>

Remove the white plastic "grate" material that the bio balls are resting on. Then move your sponge block a little bit into your sump return pump chamber but not too much, leave enough room for the pump to work good. This should give you some room to put the rock in, (basically the area that is currently below the white plastic grate piece). I had a wet dry setup on my tank and removed the bio balls a little at a time and replaced with LR, works great now.

[KBartley77]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks everybody for the great advice, I can't wait to start lowering these nitrates. With my water change this weekend I guess I'm going to remove about 1/4 of my bio-balls and add around 10 lbs. of live rock to the sump. Also I don't know if you all noticed in my pictures, but I must have about 80 growths of aipstatia, ordered joes juice yesterday, would it be bad to try to treat all 80 at one time? Thanks again guys.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Reptoreef]

If you're interested in a new resident and would have the room for another fish that will naturally predate on those ape corals... aka aptasia, try a copperband butterfly.

[ramoth41]

carefull with the copper banned though when he is out of aptasia he might just go for any corals you have... you might try peppermint shrimp they wil eat them too.