View Full Version : Ideal Flow in a Zoanthid Dominated Aquarium
Wy Renegade
11-16-2010, 12:43 PM
John's thread on generating flow in your aquarium
http://www.captivereefs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11024
got me to thinking about flow again, and I remembered some articles I had read awhile back on how flow is actually more important to your corals than light. I had to do a little digging, but came up with the article;
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/6/aafeature2
This is the first article in a series of 4;
#2 http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/aafeature/view
#3 http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature2/view
and #4 http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/11/aafeature/view
Which in turn lead me to the question of what is the ideal flow for a zoanthid dominated tank? Total volume of flow? Turn over rate? and Type of flow?
Thoughts or input?
Sir Patrick
11-16-2010, 11:25 PM
Great thread! looks like i got some reading to do! After i read these links, I will reply......but for now-
I would think, for polyps, a flow strong enough to keep their mats clean of debris, but not strong enough to cause than to close would be best. I also think a current in tank that promotes broken down, or semi broken down food sources to get carried within their reach, to feed them, would be ideal.
This reminds me of a post I read, long ago, about a "Sweet spot" in an aquarium, for polyps.....
Looking forward to reading those links!
Wy Renegade
11-17-2010, 12:36 AM
Well, at least someone responded. Looking forward to future comments.
Sir Patrick
11-17-2010, 12:40 AM
^ Everyone is probly letting the reading material sink in a bit....:snorkel:
Well, I'm too lazy to read all of that.
IME, if you want Zs and Ps with longer skirts, lower flow.
That's what I notice when I see a low flow tank as opposed to a high flow tank.
If the flow is too low though, algae can begin to grow on the poylps and cause them not to open unless blown off with a powerhead. (Not just Cyanbacteria either)
Sometimes too much flow will cause the polyps to not open fully or possibly to begin to shrink into a smaller size.
Lowflow, lowlight = larger polyps, long skirts.
Highflow, lowlight = shortskirt tall polyps.
Lowflow, highlight = large polyps with shorter skirts.
Highflow, high light = shortpolyps with long skirts.
That's just what I noticed with my setups and placements...
Wy Renegade
11-19-2010, 11:09 AM
Anybody else have any thoughts?
XSiVE
11-19-2010, 11:32 AM
I just recently put zoa's back in the display after a long hiatus... every polyp from the contest frag pack is wide open and I have a massive amount of flow in my display.
Two vortechs(run in TSM 100%) in my 120 up near the top, my 1200gph closed loop plus ~500gph return pump flow. The zoo's are in the sand near a side wall so they arent typically in the direct collision of flow from the two vortechs but they get some serious undertow from the one on their side.
sooo on average Im running ~ 7500-8000gph in my 120 and I dont have any closing up.
fishtal
11-19-2010, 12:43 PM
I can report what I've seen in the wild... The last time I was in HI a buddy of mine took me around and we did some collecting. (Yes, it's legal to collect Zoas there, at least for now.)
We went out into Kaneohe Bay to an area that I would call the "upper back-reef slope" which EB describes as: "although somewhat buffered from incoming waves, this is a zone this swirling currents and a great variety of coral forms and species." The weather was a bit rough that day but the zoanthids were fine and plentiful.
The second place we went was actually a boat harbor where we couldn't collect but he just wanted to show me the massive mats of zoanthids. There were colonies the size of your couch in water that you wouldn't want to touch. Just nasty conditions... boat waste of all types and very little flow. The only flow would be from the raising and lowering of the tide and a passing boat.
So, IMHO, I'd say that flow isn't really a big factor for zoanthids in general. Although I'm sure the can be found at deeper depths, all of the colonies that I saw in the wild were at a depth of 3'-5'. HTH
XSiVE
11-19-2010, 01:14 PM
Thanks for the info Tal!
MizTanks
11-19-2010, 01:36 PM
As most of you know I have an 8g bio cube. 18w flor 18w atenic. Mj606 with a hydroflow 185gph. I have zoas all over the tank. The ones doing the best are those sitting right under the out put, back against the wall. These have actually climbed the wall. They're pretty much shaded by the hydroflow.
Another one that does great for me are the RADE's. Right under the lights, very little flow.
@Sir: FYI-my kedds are making a come back, I now have 4 polyps! Go figure right? Lol
Sent from my iPhone while chasing Forest Gump!
Wy Renegade
11-19-2010, 02:06 PM
Wow! Now that is the kind of input I love to see - everybody sharing and caring! Keep it coming folks.
I just recently put zoa's back in the display after a long hiatus... every polyp from the contest frag pack is wide open and I have a massive amount of flow in my display.
Two vortechs(run in TSM 100%) in my 120 up near the top, my 1200gph closed loop plus ~500gph return pump flow. The zoo's are in the sand near a side wall so they arent typically in the direct collision of flow from the two vortechs but they get some serious undertow from the one on their side.
sooo on average Im running ~ 7500-8000gph in my 120 and I dont have any closing up.
Thanks for the input - I'll be watching your growth rate to see how they do in that high flow. Can you explain 100% TSM?
I can report what I've seen in the wild... The last time I was in HI a buddy of mine took me around and we did some collecting. (Yes, it's legal to collect Zoas there, at least for now.)
We went out into Kaneohe Bay to an area that I would call the "upper back-reef slope" which EB describes as: "although somewhat buffered from incoming waves, this is a zone this swirling currents and a great variety of coral forms and species." The weather was a bit rough that day but the zoanthids were fine and plentiful.
The second place we went was actually a boat harbor where we couldn't collect but he just wanted to show me the massive mats of zoanthids. There were colonies the size of your couch in water that you wouldn't want to touch. Just nasty conditions... boat waste of all types and very little flow. The only flow would be from the raising and lowering of the tide and a passing boat.
So, IMHO, I'd say that flow isn't really a big factor for zoanthids in general. Although I'm sure the can be found at deeper depths, all of the colonies that I saw in the wild were at a depth of 3'-5'. HTH
Nice info, thanks for posting. Do you by chance remember if the zoas you saw in the two different sites were the same or different?
Thanks for the info Tal!
Ditto that.
As most of you know I have an 8g bio cube. 18w flor 18w atenic. Mj606 with a hydroflow 185gph. I have zoas all over the tank. The ones doing the best are those sitting right under the out put, back against the wall. These have actually climbed the wall. They're pretty much shaded by the hydroflow.
Another one that does great for me are the RADE's. Right under the lights, very little flow.
@Sir: FYI-my kedds are making a come back, I now have 4 polyps! Go figure right? Lol
Sent from my iPhone while chasing Forest Gump!
Thanks Miz, I wonder if you placed some that aren't doing so well into a higher flow area or if you added to more flow what that would do to those frags not doing so well.
Congrates on the Kedds, your issue may indeed have been a tank maturity issue (perhaps a topic for a thread discussion ;))
Invert
11-26-2010, 12:40 PM
fishtal wrote:
I can report what I've seen in the wild... The last time I was in HI a buddy of mine took me around and we did some collecting.
I would love to see them in there Natural Environment.
Ideal Flow
This may be considered a vague question.
There are several different types of Zoas, that come from several different types of environments.
Zoas collected in " Open Ocean " areas are subjected to different Flow.
Than say,
Lagon / Bay areas that are subjected to High / Low Tide , Constant wave bombardment.
And then there is:
Depth of Collection / Light Requirements
High Nutrient Environments vs. Low Nutrient Environments.
" Long Term " Aqua cultured polys have already adapted to life in captivity and are more likely to adapt to a new environment " Someone Else's Tank "
" Wild Collected " Polyps have several different stresser that they experience before entering our tanks.
Collection, Long Boat Rides, Collectors Holding Facilities, Airplane Ride, Importers Holding Facilities & Store Tanks.
This all happens in a relatively short amount of time and if this is not enough to Melt The Polyps.
We then try and make them happy in our tanks.
I believe there is more thought needed,
before trying to find "The Ideal Flow" for your polyps.
If you already have Over Stressed Polyps:
Ideal Flow may not even keep them from Melting
Just my
2 Pennies Worth
Wy Renegade
11-26-2010, 04:28 PM
fishtal wrote:
I would love to see them in there Natural Environment.
Ideal Flow
This may be considered a vague question.
There are several different types of Zoas, that come from several different types of environments.
Zoas collected in " Open Ocean " areas are subjected to different Flow.
Than say,
Lagon / Bay areas that are subjected to High / Low Tide , Constant wave bombardment.
And then there is:
Depth of Collection / Light Requirements
High Nutrient Environments vs. Low Nutrient Environments.
" Long Term " Aqua cultured polys have already adapted to life in captivity and are more likely to adapt to a new environment " Someone Else's Tank "
" Wild Collected " Polyps have several different stresser that they experience before entering our tanks.
Collection, Long Boat Rides, Collectors Holding Facilities, Airplane Ride, Importers Holding Facilities & Store Tanks.
This all happens in a relatively short amount of time and if this is not enough to Melt The Polyps.
We then try and make them happy in our tanks.
I believe there is more thought needed,
before trying to find "The Ideal Flow" for your polyps.
If you already have Over Stressed Polyps:
Ideal Flow may not even keep them from Melting
Just my
2 Pennies Worth
Indeed John, I agree that different types are going to have different requirements. I'm just wondering if in general, say high random flow tends to be better for zoas than high directional flow, or even just overturn rate? I would tend to think that other wise, we would end up with more of a placement by type thread, like we're doing for lighting.
Kev Apsley
11-26-2010, 05:42 PM
I think it you have enough flow to keep the mats clean of detritus but not too much as to keep them from opening that is ideal... wide flow that alternates seems to work good for me
rmalone
11-26-2010, 06:43 PM
Well I agree with Fishtal for most polyps, particularly aquacultured. Most polyps will adapt quite well to most any flow besides completely stagnant. Now they definately look different in different tanks, so for most polyps, ideal flow depends on how you want them to look.
One of you Zoa lovers should put frags of the same kind of polyp in the same tank but in VERY different conditions, both light and flow. I would imagine that light has at least as big of an effect on how a polyp looks as does flow, likely more.
I have mostly kept zoas in high flow/high light conditions, and I havent seen them fail to open because of high flow or high light for that matter, with a little acclimation of course. Zoas seem to be the most variable with regards to looks of anything I have tried growing It seems like a frag of zoas that you give or sell someone looks like a different beast within a few months in the new tank.
Sir Patrick
11-27-2010, 12:26 AM
looks like a different beast within a few months in the new tank- Agreed
I havent seen them fail to open because of high flow or high light for that matter, with a little acclimation of course- Agreed again!
fishtal
11-27-2010, 12:49 AM
Randy,
The huge colony that I saw in the harbor were all the same color, blue/green. The ones I saw on the other side of the island were a wide variety of colors. All kinds of crazy ones. Check out www.Alohacorals.com You can see all the different types that Kevin collects.
Invert
11-27-2010, 08:30 AM
Indeed John, I agree that different types are going to have different requirements. I'm just wondering if in general, say high random flow tends to be better for zoas than high directional flow, or even just overturn rate? I would tend to think that other wise, we would end up with more of a placement by type thread, like we're doing for lighting.
I understand that this is a " General Information " Thread.
:(:( I just wish this Hobby was that simple :(:(
Kev Apsley wrote:
I think it you have enough flow to keep the mats clean of detritus but not too much as to keep them from opening that is ideal...
fishtal wrote:
The huge colony that I saw in the harbor were all the same color, blue/green. The ones I saw on the other side of the island were a wide variety of colors. All kinds of crazy ones.
These two comments kind of go together.
Zoas in the Wild vs Zoas in our Glass Box.
Some Corals thrive where others can not.
have enough flow to keep the mats clean of detritus
I have had Wild Collected Colonies,
That were growing on Dead SPS branches with a wide separation of Polyp growth and no Detritus.
&
Densely Packed Polyps growing on Live Rock.
With enough Detritus to sustain its own ecosystem.
In short,
These two Colonies came from two different environments.
Understanding your Polyps, will help you acclimate them to your Tank.
Another thing to think about,
As your Tank matures, the flow requirements will change.
Getting decent flow around ( 20 ) 10 Polyp Frags is easier than getting Flow around ( 20 ) 100 polyp Colonies.
I have had Success with the same Polyps in different Flow and some polyps show little difference in the Size/Skirt Size.
Frag tank - High Flow Constant direction
Display Tank - Alternating Lower Flow
Just a Few Things
To Think About.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.