Bio-Filter in a Bucket

[Rook]

Anyone ever create a DIY bio-filter, or seen a good thread somewhere on the topic? I was thinking of using a five gallon bucket, pump, and some bioballs and having a tumbling bio-filter. I'm sure I'm not considering everthing for the project and wanted to see if anyone else has already done this and figured it out for me.

[jimsflies]

It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you were having a problem with ammonia, then this system would probably help. But bioballs in a bucket would be the same problem as a wet dry as far as increasing nitrates. They do a great job of capturing detritus and provide a great place for nitrifying bacteria to colonize. By capturing the detritus and preventing detrivores from reducing it, you end up with more nitrates. If you increased your nitrate removal somewhere in the system you'd be okay.

I have heard of deep sand beds in a bucket to remove nitrates. The dsb provides an anaerobic area for denitrifying bacteria to colonize. And after a period of time if you suspect the dsb is causing problems, you can remove the bucket from the system, replace the sand and your back in business.

[Rook]

Not sure I guess. I used to have a 100 gallon rubbermade sump with an 8 inch deep sand bed and 300 lbs of live rock for my 90 gallon tank. I used to joke that I could relieve myself in the sump and not have any algae issues :silly: Since the move to Detroit which left me with a very small sump/fuge, I've been fighting algae issues non-stop and my corals are not nearly as healthy (though my laziness in water changes does not help). I've tried different skimmers before, and I'm looking into one again, but I've not had much luck with skimmers. Bashee makes a "Bio-Reactor", which is basically a media reactor with small bioballs (or so it looks). I'm assuming it breaks down amonia to nitrates leaving the liverock, DSB in the display and the refuge to eliminate the nitrates. So, I guess I'm looking for a cheaper, DIY, version of that.

May try the DBS in a bucket, but I have a 6" DSB in my display tank right now.

[cg5071]

Check out slapshots new thread about his tank. You may get alot of ideas from his system. He has several different types of diy reef equipment.
http://www.captivereefs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11607

[Rook]

Thanks for the tip; Slapshot has a very cool setup. I wish I had the ability to run a basement setup again. Alast, I'm stuck to the minimal space under the tank. I may order a media reactor from BRS to run GFO and Carbon through (versus currently having it in media bags sitting in the sump). That should help, some.

Maybe I'll just get a 5 gallon bucket and fill it with broken up / small pieces of live rock and have an extra liverock filter. I'll have to see if I can move my sump around a bit.

[Rook]

What about these "Bio-Pellet" reactors? Slapshot has one on his setup. BulkReef has one for sale. What are these versus simple bio-balls in a reactor?

[cg5071]

Yes, and I was just thinking with a dsb in a bucket run a turf scrubber at the same time. I have seen bucket models of those on the net as well. Looks very easy to do. Maybe combine both units in the same bucket. Or fluidize some sand in an old skimmer or canister and add a turf scrubber. The vertex pellets and a brs reactor might be the best after all. only 40$ for the reactor there, I am making mine from a skimmer body but you cant beat 40 unless you have extras laying around.

[cg5071]

Those make bacteria to eat nitrates and then the corals and fish can use the output as food but you have to re-oxygenate first through your sump or some fast moving water. return? Very small bio balls,lol and they eat what they produce.

[jimsflies]

Those make bacteria to eat nitrates and then the corals and fish can use the output

Not sure if I follow you on this?

[jimsflies]

What about these "Bio-Pellet" reactors? Slapshot has one on his setup. BulkReef has one for sale. What are these versus simple bio-balls in a reactor?

Bio Pellets are completely different than bio-balls. From my understanding they are basically Pro-Biotic type systems. They dissolve over time and provide an additional carbon source for bacteria to reach larger than normal populations. It is similar to vodka dosing and often used in combination with vodka dosing. Many have had good luck with Brightwell's MicroBacter7 along with these systems which adds bacteria to the system.

I would stay away from live rock rubble. It is the same deal as bioballs...a place to collect detritus which in turns increases nitrates. Sandbeds don't allow for as much "accumulation". Plus the top portion can be scavenged by detrivores to consume it before it breaks down.

I'd go back to better water change routine, reduce feedings if you can, perhaps reduce bioload if you can't reduce feedings. I'd also recommend adding a phosphate reactor and look into adding the Brightwells MB7. That alone may fix your problem. It also will help your skimmer pull the junk out better.

[Rook]

What skimmer ;)

I'll have to look in the carbon source bio-pellets systems. Not sure I keep up on maintenance enough to try something like that; don't want to cause a system crash.

I'm not sure I understand your comment on live rock rubble. If live rock rubble can become a place to collect detritus, why is it not the same of the live rock in our tanks and sumps?

[rmalone]

You need a skimmer if your going to run bio-pellets or vodka. I can't imagine running a tank without a skimmer, but then again I have been so impressed with vodka and microbacter 7 that I wouldn't runa tank without those either.

[jimsflies]

What skimmer ;)

No skimmer...no water changes...I see a possible trend. And likely a good place to start with dealing with the problem. :)



I'm not sure I understand your comment on live rock rubble. If live rock rubble can become a place to collect detritus, why is it not the same of the live rock in our tanks and sumps?

Live rock collects detritus. However, ideally the cleanup crew has access to it to help eat it before it decays. I also don't like live rock in the sump (especially rubble). Even with a cleanup crew, rubble is more difficult for the to get at it.

Live rock, especially rubble is going to primarily nitrify (i.e., break ammonia down into nitrate). The quantity of liverock we keep in our displays already does this job with 100% efficiency...as well as any other surface that bacteria can colonize. Large pieces of live rock, would have anaerobic areas deep inside of them and perform some denitrifying.

For algae to grow it needs nitrogen, phosphorus, and light. If you take any one of these out the equation algae can't grow. Most likely you have excess phosphates. Even at very low levels of phosphates, algae can still grow. The phosphate level I have read where algae is limited is below 0.05 ppm. It is likely that if you have an algae problem that a phosphate test would not show a significant concentration of phosphate because it is being consumed by the algae.

[Rook]

Yeap, no skimmer. I had a EuroReef years ago when I had my basement sump and I could never get it to produce much, so I got rid of it and have been skimmerless for 99% of my 10 or so years with a reef tank. The water changes is in part laziness since its now a PITA to lug 5 gallon buckets of water up from the basement, and in part some apathy after my tank had a bit of a crash when I moved. Now I'm trying to get it back up to how it used to be where I could feed rigorously and not experience much, if any, nutrient problems.

Thanks for the feedback. I understand now what your saying about rubble not being able to provide the final filtration of nitrates to nitrogen gas; perhaps a bucket full of regular liverock would be better, and would let me take some liverock out of the display tank and free up some swimming room.

I'm getting a BRS reactor for Carbon and GFO; I'm looking into trying a skimmer again (though I'm cheap and I need an external skimmer); and exploring other ideas that work and are fairly low maintenance and low risk solutions.

[jimsflies]

I think you will see benefit from running GFO (and carbon). Dialing in those GFO's can be a bit of a pain. Too little flow and it turns to a brick and too much flow and it creates fine particles. I have found mixing it with carbon is a good way to go cause at least if it turns into a brick it is not a solid piece that is a real pain to empty.

You might see if you can "borrow" a skimmer from somewhere and use MB7. For what it's worth, I ran a euro reef and was never very impressed either. Others told me that if it is mesh modded it would work better. But never got around to actually doing that before I tore down my 50 display. Now I too am skimmerless, but I have a "29" gallon (more like 20 I think after all the sand and rocks are in it) and just do a few gallon water change every couple weeks. I also add a small amount of MB7 even without a skimmer and I think it does help with nitrates and phosphates (it adds the bacteria directly to the tank). I had algae issues at the end of the old tank and that has disappeared on the rock I moved to the new tank.

[cg5071]

I was just saying... He really had no idea about pellets. They both let bacteria colonize the surface which I guess is where they stop being similar at all.

I lost interest for a month or 2 last winter. I just decided that I had to decide, do I want to keep this thing going or not. Doing a chore everyday or couple of days seems to make the workload more managable and less like work to me. Though some days I dont even want to add my 2 1/2g-3g top off but I dont want to kill things or burn an expensive pump either,lol.

[rmalone]

I think mb7 would be fine without a skimmer but don't go bio-pellet or vodka. Gfo is so nice it just makes phosphates a non-issue.

[Rook]

I'll start with carbon and GFO and up my water changes :crying: If I can find a skimmer for a good price, that is nice and easy to set and forget (other than emptying the cup) then I may go for one; I have no idea on which of the million skimmers are worth the costs though.

So, what would happen if I ran the biopellets without a skimmer? Some meltdown?

[Rook]

So, looking a bit into MB7, so I can dose this stuff without adding the carbon source, and thus safely use it without a skimmer?

[rmalone]

The problem is that bacteria does die, if it isn't removed then the nitrates and phosphates they consumed are just released into the water. You have the choice of very regular water changes or a skimmer with moderate water changes (water changes are necessary for more than nutrient export). I don't think there is any way around the situation.

Even deep sand beds are really just a way to store nutrients, sooner or later they will bite your butt if you don't take them off line and remove enough to ditch the nutrients, namely stored nitrates and phosphates. There is no free lunch. If nutrients go in the tank they have to come out or they are still there. Sure a little bit gets used up as energy which would be released as heat by the organism (macro/micro algae, bact, fish, coral...etc..etc.), via respiration but most of the nitrogen and phosphorous is just getting moved around by various organisms. Until it actually gets taken OUT of the tank nutrients are building up, it might be stored somewhere but it's still in the tank.

[Rook]

Tested my water for the first time in a while. No measurable ammonia, nitrite, nitrate or phosphate. Not unusual, I have rarely had any measurable results with my tank since I want to a 90 gallon 6+ years ago; but there is clearly nitrates and phosphates that are at least being used up in the hair algae that is covering my liverock and hampering my coral growth / expansion. I'll have to check the age of my test kits too, they are Salifert and roughly 3 years since I purchased them from P.A. online.

[cg5071]

I tried purigen and it seems to work for phosphates. That and the only other big change before the algae went away was ro/di. I have dirtied my purigen and re-charged it for another use since putting it in the sump.