Nitrates and Phosban Reactors w/ Carbon.

[steveperry98]

I have a 125 gal mixed reef w/ 40 gal sump, that I have been dealing with a NO3 problem for a little while. I have been doing 35gal water changes about every 3-4 days for a couple weeks now and I can't get it to drop below 20ppm.

I talked to Steve at Pruess for about a half hour today and he seems to think that I need to adjust my skimmer. He said, I should try to get a more watery skim mate and empty the cup everyday instead of a thick goop that I clean out twice a week. Also that I should get a higher quality NO3 tester to insure that I truly am having a problem, something about using cheap test kits that were not as accurate.

So I made the adjustment's.

Then I went a step further and order a Phosban reactor and I plan on using activated carbon. Steve seemed to think this might help as well.

Anyways what do you guys think? Anyone had any luck with this kind of a setup? I have also been doing a lot of research into vodka dosing as well. Although I think I should probably make one attempt at a time to fix this problem.

[EMUreef]

I have a 125 gal mixed reef w/ 40 gal sump, that I have been dealing with a NO3 problem for a little while. I have been doing 35gal water changes about every 3-4 days for a couple weeks now and I can't get it to drop below 20ppm. I talked to Steve at Pruess for about a half hour today and he seems to think that I need to adjust my skimmer. he said I should get a more water skim mate and empty the cup everyday instead of a thick goop that I clean out twice a week. Also that I should get a higher quality NO3 tester to insure that I truly am having a problem, something about using cheap test kits that were not a accurate. So I made the adjustment's. Then I went a step further and order a Phosban reactor and I plan on using activated carbon. Steve seemed to think this might help. Anyways what do you guys think? also I have been doing a lot of research into vodka dosing as well. I think I should do one thing at a time though.

Hm. It makes me think you might have a bad test kit. Because doing water changes like that you shouldn't have any nitrates. How often do you feed?

As far as the Reactor and using carbon goes. The carbon is always useful but wont impact ur Nitrates that much. You are on the right track to search carbon dosing. Also look into Bio-pellets which is a solid form of vodka dosing, those would go right into your reactor.

But first i'd get a new test kit.

[Sir Patrick]

Sounds like your system is producing nitrates somewhere....if your test kits not bad, as EMU pointed out.

Can you give us a rundown on your system, including filters, substrate, age of tank, feeding scedule, fish and how many you have, ect? Are you using sponges, filter pads, or filter socks of any kind?

Before we look for a way to reduce these nitrates, I think we should find where they are comming from, after that the issue should take care of itself.

Good suggestion skimming a bit wetter.

[steveperry98]

I feed once a day. I put just enough into the tank so as the inhabitants will eat it up before it hit's the sand bed, I repeat this process until everyone stops showing interest in the food. I will be getting a new test kit tomorrow one that will be able to test lower levels of NO3.

My system is a 125 acrylic Flat back hex. It has been running since June, 2010. The contents have been in my 90 Gal since Febuary, 2010. It has a center over flow w/ 1 inch drain and 2, 3/4 inch returns feed by a mag drive 9.5 in the refuge/sump(I'm scared to drill the sump). It has a 40 gal sump, with the drain running over filter media that is suspended above the water line. My skimmer is a Reef Octopus NW-200-6540B, rated for up to 250 gallons. I am running 2, 250w DE Metal Halides, w/ 20000k bulbs. Along with the Mag 9.5, I have 2, Koralia 4's for added water movement.

The tank has a sand bed about 4 inches deep. I put 160Lbs of live sand in the tank when I was building it. the rookie mistake I did make, was using the 120Lbs from my already running 90 Gal bow front. In my defense that tank had only been running for about 6 months. So we aren't talking about a lot of build up in the sand bed. Although I didn't wash the sand either. I did have the 90 gal still up and running while I switched the sand bed and live rock over. I also waited for almost two months before putting any livestock in the tank. I did countless water changes in those two months. I also went through a full test kit monitoring my levels. I have 270Lbs of Fiji live rock. When I built the sump I included a single bubble trap with a distance of about 2 1/2 inches between the two glass baffles which I put reef rubble into for added filtration.

I currently have 11 medium size fish in the tank. 2 Hippo tangs, a Powder Blue Tang, a Yellow tang, 3 Green Chromis, Lawn Mower Blenny, Cardinal and 2 Percula Clowns. I have about a hundred Blue Legged Hermits and a hundred Astrea Snails, 2 Fire Shrimp, Coral Banded Shrimp, and a 4" Ultra Crocea Clam. Countless corals as well.

I have been doing regular cleanings of the filter media once a week by washing them in the sink and scrubbing them until they are clean. I have started to think about using a filter sock and dropping the drain below the water level, the sound of running water is driving my wife nuts. I have learned to block it out.

I've, up until today, cleaned the skimmer of the thick sludge once or twice a week. I am now learning that I haven't tuned in the skimmer and like stated above have started dailing it in to skimmer a wetter skim mate.

I also have about a 5 gallon bucket worth of cheato in the refuge. I have no sand bed in the refuge due to the return pump being in there too. I don't want to chance the sand doing any damage to the return pump.

[EMUreef]

my guess is your skimmer is having an issue with the bio load, 4 tangs will poop a lot.

[Sir Patrick]

I would tend to think that the filter media that is suspended above the water line could be a culprit, but you say you maintain it once a week....so thats most likely out.

You say you used an older (but not old) sand bed from another tank, and added new sand. Not sure if this could be a source...thinking its not.

11 fish, 2 Hippo tangs, a Powder Blue Tang, a Yellow tang, 3 Green Chromis, Lawn Mower Blenny, Cardinal and 2 Percula Clowns, in a 90 gallon, that are well fed, but not over fed....Hmmmm......maybe we found the source. Its very possible. I would say nitrates at 20ppm in a tank heavily stocked isnt really all that bad. Tangs are VERY messy!

Im going to think on this one a bit more.....

Thanks for such a thorough description of your tank! It will help alot!

[EMUreef]

Something seems off to me, with the amount of water changes you do, and you saw NO changes in nitrates, that tells me your test kit is possibly bad.

[steveperry98]

Just want to make sure we are all on the same page this is my 125 w/ 40 gal sump we are talking about I don't have the 90 running anymore. I have about 125 gallons total due to displacement for the sand and rock and equipment.

I did see a drop in NO3 from a spike of about 80 down now to hovering around 20ppm. I just can't get below that 20ppm mark.

[EMUreef]

Just want to make sure we are all on the same page this is my 125 we are talking about I don't have the 90 running anymore. I have about 125 gallons total due to displacement for the sand and rock and equipment.

yea that many tangs in a water volume that size could possibly cause issues since tangs are known to create a lot of waste.

[steveperry98]

So outside of getting another better test kit what can be done?

[EMUreef]

So outside of getting another better test kit what can be done?

vodka dosing or bio pellets.
those both help reduce nitrates.

can you tell us more of your fuge? how its set up?

[Sir Patrick]

Sorry- missed the 125 part, hehehe.

Vodka dosing, MB7 and biofuel, or a number of other probiotic approaches can help.

[steveperry98]

Here's a couple pictures.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad289/steveperry98/tank%20setup/DSC02653.jpg

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad289/steveperry98/tank%20setup/DSC02652.jpg

I am having a similar discussion on the "other site" and they are saying to put Vertex Bio-pellets in the Phosban Reactor. Which I guess is like vodka dosing.

[EMUreef]

Here's a couple pictures.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad289/steveperry98/tank%20setup/DSC02653.jpg

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad289/steveperry98/tank%20setup/DSC02652.jpg

whats the left chamber is that the drain from your display?

[steveperry98]

Yes that is. These are old pictures though from right after the tank was set up things look different now.

[Sir Patrick]

Looks like your skimmer is kicking butt!

How long has the live rock rubble been in the last bubble trap? Detrius can get trapped there, and cause nitrate issues. Not saying its your issue, but can be or become one eventually.

Your sump looks very clean!

[EMUreef]

do you have cheato or any macro algae in your fuge now?

[steveperry98]

New pictures from 2 minutes ago. I haven't touched the rock rubble since putting it there.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad289/steveperry98/tank%20setup/DSC02652-1.jpg

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad289/steveperry98/tank%20setup/DSC02653-1.jpg

[EMUreef]

yea i think you should work on getting a new test kit and going from there before we move on to how to remove your possible nitrate issue.

[Sir Patrick]

^ I agree.

[steveperry98]

That's the plan, so I'll up date this thread tomorrow evening and guess we can go from there.

[Rabidgoose]

I didn't catch it....are you having algae problems as well?


So outside of getting another better test kit what can be done?

2 things I would do to start with.....

1) I would take a water sample in to the pet store and have them check it, if it is drastically different than what you get with your test kit I would get another test kit. I would also suggest testing your source water. Do you use RO/DI?

2) I would cut back on the feeding. This may take a little time to notice a difference but consider that what goes in at the north end supplies nutrients to the fish, what comes out at the south end supplies nutrients to the tank...

[steveperry98]

I am planning on bring some water with me to get tested. I do have a 5 stage R/O system that is brand new. I have made about 600 gallons off it so far in the last 6 month's. I do not know if it has a D.I membrane but I would think it does. The last filter it runs water through says it is a deodorizer and neutralizer. Which sounds like a D.I filter. I did use well water on the 90 gal when I first set it through the 6 months it was setup up but no unfiltered water has ever touched my 125 Gal.

I really didn't think that I was over feeding but I will consider it along with some other things that were mentioned here last night. I have very little problems with algae in the tank. I need to clean the glass about every 3-4 days, sometimes I get away with not doing it for longer then that. When I do have to clean the glass though, it's not anything major just a thin film of light brown algae. Although I do get a lot of these small light brown dots of algae clustered close together that I have to put some effort into scrubbing off, they take just a little less effort to get off then tiny spots of coraline. I'll post what I find out tonight from the new test kit I get today.

[rmalone]

Get a new test kit for sure. I would recommend salifert or lamotte. Supposedly elos makes a good kit also. Stay away from ocean, api, red sea, and tetra kits. I have no faith in any of those, yes I have tried all mentioned except elos.

Ditch that rubble if it's in the baffle, if you want to keep it just lay it out in the skimmer or return section so it can be cleaned around.

Lots of fish for a 125g, with that bio load I would do mb7/vodka or the bio pellet and mb/7. You would be shocked at how well those systems get rid of nitrates, it's like magic and you have the skimmer to support probiotics.

[steveperry98]

So I got a bunch of new test kit this afternoon, anyone ever hear of Nutrafin Test kits? The test tubes say Hagen, I think I have heard of them before.

Any ways the test I did came back at between 5-10mg/L. That was a big shocker! I also got a PO4 test kit and it came out to about 0.5mg/L. The new KH test kit came out to 110mg/L. So my Carbonate Hardness is low accoring to this kit. Says it should be between 150-190mg/L. Says I should add the appropriate buffer. What is the appropriate buffer? Magnesium? Alkalinity? What product should I use? I don't have a magnesium test kit so I don't dose for it even though I have some.

Order the Phosban last night and I picked up a pump big enough(296gph) to handle the tumbling that is so important to prevent clumping according to Vertex Pro Bio Pellets instructions.

I think I am going to test my R/O's NO3 levels just as a precaution tonight.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad289/steveperry98/Tank%20update%20080910/DSC02659.jpg

[EMUreef]

So I got a bunch of new test kit this afternoon, anyone ever hear of Nutrafin Test kits? The test tubes say Hagen, I think I have heard of them before.

Any ways the test I did came back at between 5-10mg/L. That was a big shocker! I also got a PO4 test kit and it came out to about 0.5mg/L. The new KH test kit came out to 110mg/L. So my Carbonate Hardness is low accoring to this kit. Says it should be between 150-190mg/L. Says I should add the appropriate buffer. What is the appropriate buffer? Magnesium? Alkalinity? What product should I use? I don't have a magnesium test kit so I don't dose for it even though I have some.

Order the Phosban last night and I picked up a pump big enough(296gph) to handle the tumbling that is so important to prevent clumping according to Vertex Pro Bio Pellets instructions.

I think I am going to test my R/O's NO3 levels just as a precaution tonight.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad289/steveperry98/Tank%20update%20080910/DSC02659.jpg


Hmm i've never heard of that company and i can see why im not to sure why they dont have a 0 color lol. it only goes to 5. But either way its showing that its not as bad as you though. 5-10 is livable, do you have SPS? cause if you have sps than your going to want them at 0.

Couple days before my water change my N03 is at 5 and after a water change it goes away. I'd cut back on the feedings. I see ur going with the vertex bio pellets your nirtates and phosphates will go away after using that.

as far as getting ur Alk back up, you should look into getting a 2 part. 1 part is the calc and the other part is the Carbonate Alk. which will raise that.

[steveperry98]

I have some B-Ionic Calcium buffer system, comes in two bottles, problem is I have never used them. Is it okay to just use the alk buffer with out the calcium? Also the kit say that if you have 0mg/L the color will stay clear. I do have a little SPS but it has taken a year to grow a little more than double it's original size which was bearly 2 inches to start with. Basically SPS maintains it's self in my tank with very little growth if any. I have always just chalked that up to it being a new tank.

[EMUreef]

I have a two part cal and alk with separate bottles problem is I have never used them so is it safe to just use the alk buffer with out the calcium?

yea its safe do you have a calc test?

[steveperry98]

Yes, but it's a API brand, can I trust it? That was the brand of test kit's I was using before this new stuff.

[EMUreef]

Yes, but it's a API brand, can I trust it? That was the brand of test kit's I was using before this new stuff.

i would recommend salifert for calcium, but you can ad the alk part of the 2 part without and ill effects, the only reason they give you a 2 part is because they are both suppose to be absorbed at the same time with the same amount.

[EMUreef]

the lil sps growth is because your levels are off alk/calc and nitrates.

[steveperry98]

The directions are kind of vague willing to help me out on how much I should use? Says to start doseing 1ml per 4 gallons of water capacity. How much should I add if I only want to bring up the levels 40mg/l- 80mg/l?

[EMUreef]

The directions are kind of vague willing to help me out on how much I should use? Says Says to start doseing 1ml per 4 gallons of water capacity. How much should I add if I only want to bring up the levels 40mg/l?

does it say how much it raises it?

[steveperry98]

1ml per gallon will raise alkalinity by 0.74maq/liter (2.07dKH)

[EMUreef]

1ml per gallon will raise alkalinity by 0.74maq/liter (2.07dKH)

do 30ml. you wanna raise it slowly.

[steveperry98]

Should I do that tonight or in the early morning before the lights come on, while levels are lower?

[EMUreef]

Should I do that tonight or in the early morning before the lights come one while levels are lower?

PH jumps when you add it. I add mine whenever lol. I dont think it really matters.

the way to figure out how much to dose take ur total water volume you think you have and devide it by 4, the number you get is how many mL to dose.

[steveperry98]

140/4= 35. So 35 ml to start with?

[EMUreef]

140/4= 35. So 35 ml to start with?

yea, go with that than wait a few hours and test and see where your at.

[steveperry98]

Alright that's what I'll do. Thanks so much!

[steveperry98]

So after much talk and a lot of research here is what I have come up with along with some great help from some fellow reef keepers off this and "another" site.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us_vUeOEpbU

[bigbill]

dosent work :-[

[steveperry98]

Video is fixed sorry about that!