Antibiotic for cyano???

[Heidi]

I know there are TONS of methods to get rid of this stuff but I was wondering what the "fish antibiotic" Sir Patrick has recommended for killing off this bad bacteria was called. Thanks!
Heidi

[jimsflies]

myacin (or erythromycin).

[EMUreef]

he mentioned red slime remover.

ill be following along with this if anyone has any other options cause im dealing with the same crap heidi as you know.

i might be venturing out to pet connection tomorrow to get some red slime remover... this crap is just insane.

im dosing vodka, running gfo, feed once a day only enough to where they all get some and there are no left overs... so i've reached the point where i have to add something else to help.

[jimsflies]

I've used myacin with no problems. It works on gram negative bacteria. Most of the good bacteria in our reefs is gram positive...so they remain unharmed.

You should plan a big water change and run carbon afterwards. You will also need to turn off your skimmer for awhile because it will go nuts.

[MizTanks]

Heidi if your talking about *red slim algae* I used ChemiClean. Works wonderfully. 2 days and it's gone!

[Sir Patrick]

Russ- back off the carbon source, while any bacterial nusance stuff is bothering your tank. You might be dosing too much if this is a reocuring issue. Vodka will feed it.

I was refering to this stuff, as Jimsflies mentioned-

Maracyn (http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4838)

I have used it many times, and as long as O2 levels dont get out of wack, I have had no issues. Plenty of water surface agitation, and a properly adjusted protein skimmer, to handle the very wet skim it will produce will help. I always combine this dose w/ a brief 2 day lights out too.

[nate_newton]

I know there are TONS of methods to get rid of this stuff but I was wondering what the "fish antibiotic" Sir Patrick has recommended for killing off this bad bacteria was called. Thanks!
Heidi

Do you have any pictures of the cyano? Just wondering how bad it is.

[The.Maxi.Man]

It doesn't matter if you treat it, you need to fix the problem first.

What are your phosphates at?

[schminksbro]

In my opinion it is a terrible idea to dose drugs instead of fixing the problem. It will take a very long time to get the antibiotic out of your tank once it is in. In the end it is just a bandaid for the bullethole which is nutrients. Quick fixes are never a good replacement for sound husbandry.

[Heidi]

Ok, ok, settle down everybody :) I am just looking for ways to "help" with the problem at hand. Yes nutrients are an issue for my tank since I stopped dosing. Phosphates hover around .4ish. I have started back up dosing vodka along with MB7 and am about 5 days into it. I have also made it a big point to stop feeding my fish every time I go in the room... they are getting one feeding now of pellets a day and nori one time a week and rods one time a week. I have stopped feeding the coral for now. It is not my make up water as it is rodi that still has only 1 tds when fresh. I wanted to know about this kinda as a "last" resort method. I can not do another lights out on my system for a long time as my coral and everything else is looking NOT happy. So 5 days in to vodka and MB7 (only at 2.5 ml vodka) and there seemed to be less cyano today.... maybe its just my imagination. I am just happy for my gravel vacuum.

[EMUreef]

I respect everyones calls to "Fix the problem first"

well i did and its still there. My cyano came from me not changing my RO filters which caused a nitrate spike and gave me this cyano.

changed filters no i test all RO water that goes into my tank. which reads 0ppm with a TDS meter.
I always run GFO and carbon. The gfo was changed less than a month ago or so. I've been using 0 TDS RO water for more than a month now, and have done 2 water changes with it.

My water changes consist of 10g's on a roughly 110g system. i've always done it this way and my tank grew fine and ran smoothly.

My light cycle from 12:30-9:30 i have 4 bulbs on from 1:30-8:30 i have 8 bulbs on. T5 that is.

Bulbs are a month old or so.

I feed once a day, and only enough for the fish to get enough to be satisfied.

nothing changed from this has been how i've always done things since day one of the tank, never had an algae issue/cyano issue. Than bad RO filters and now i have it.

i resorted to using the mycin, it has killed some of it off, but there is still some left.

I felt like i was doing what i could do to cut down on any phosphates and nitrates, there was never any change in the cyano. so i tried vodka dosing to see if i could cut back on anymore, ya know give the cyano something to compete with for nutrients. vodka dosing had no impact, didn't increase the cyano and didn't decrease.

its just there. a few patches on the rocks, not a total outbreak. but i know its there and it bugs me.

if anyone is curious about my tank and what equipment i have please see my build thread.

[Sir Patrick]

Can I see some scientific proof to sources of this problem? last I knew, there were none......just a bunch of hypothesis- many not true.......

We, as humans, use antibiotics for bacterias.....why not our tanks? I have never knew antibiotics were bandaids.

[nate_newton]

Check your problem areas for a possible dead spot in flow.

[The.Maxi.Man]

t every reef tank at some point, and is caused or encouraged by a number of reasons including:
Available nutrients - Especially phosphates and iron in this case.
Low flow/Dead Zone - Cyano prefers growing in low flow areas.
Warmer Water - Cyano tends to grow faster in warmer water than in cooler water
Low Alkalinity- While not a cause, higher alkalinity tends to discourage cyano growth.
Possible "contaminated" water source like tap water, that has nutrients fueling the outbreak

Manual Removal: Wipe glass with mag float, light toothbrush hardier corals and the rocks. Cyano on the sand can sometimes be pulled off as a mat and discarded. You should use a net or a siphon to remove the cyano dislodged by the toothbrush. Don't be discouraged if it comes right back, cyano grows fast and is extremely efficient at consuming nutrients.On the bright side, it should die off once nutrients are managed.

Increase water changes to 30% a week with a high quality water source, such as distilled or RO/DI water. Be aggressive about removing any rotting organics in your tank that may be contributing to its growth.

Starving it out : Use a phosban reactor, or granulated ferric oxide to remove excess phosphates in the system. Check to make sure you are not feeding any foods that are particularly phosphate rich. Almost all foods when converted by animals will add to the tank's phosphates levels, but prepared foods like seasoned nori and low quality fish meals tend to be higher in phosphates than other foods. Liquefied foods tend to have more waste than others, plankton cultures that haven't matured can lead to blooms as well. Such feedings should be suspended or stopped if possible until the outbreak is under control.

Chaeto and other macroalgae will help maintain parameters to keep cyano from forming, but because cyano is an epiphyte, (can grow on other life forms), it may starve your desirable algae from light. During an outbreak make sure to keep you macro clean so it can receive light and survive the ordeal.Chemical products exist to remove it, make sure to take into account for possible hypoxia issues.

[Rabidgoose]

Parts from ramblings/observations i've jotted down at some point......I hope it helps

Dissloved Organic Carbon compounds (DOC) are in excess most likely. As with most, water quality through skimming, feeding and lighting are a given. Manual removing is a must and ample current (the more the better) is advised.

Their is some discussion about carbon (active or passive) in the tank lowering DOC thus starving cyano. While I recommend carbon as a matter of course I can not corroborate the carbon/DOC statement. Cyano is not an algae/bacteria I have had to deal with to any degree....*knocks wood*. I have used the occasional sighting of cyano as a reminder to change the carbon in my system only to have it disappear within a couple of days after the change.

Increased oxygen in the water may help slow the growth.

Their are several snails and crabs available from vendors that may help with small patches.

Cyano and dino not only sound alike they can be very similar in appearance. If you are dealing with one it is worthwhile to learn about both for that reason.

As has been mentioned...I also prescribe to the WHY then the HOW....as in first learning why I have it and second how do I get rid of it. When you know the why you can avoid it so it doesn't happen again. (I used to take aspirin for my headaches but later learned that if I just quit hitting myself in the head with a hammer I don't need the aspirin.)

From the moment your water comes out of your RO/DI unit and it reads zero on your TDS meter, when it can best be described as simply being "wet", nearly everything you do from that point forward may/does add nutrients back into your system. From the container you store it in to putting your hands in the tank to move that new frag to a different position you may be fueling a BAB!

My biggest problem with excess nutrients comes from overfeeding. Remember even though your fish eat all the food you put in the tank in a matter of minutes look at it as importing nourishment to your fish at the north end (mouth) and importing nutrients to the tank at the south end (You follow..right? Your fishes export is your tanks import...:))

It may be a combination of several factors causing the problem. I like to think back to when the problem started and decide what if anything I am doing different than I did before the bad algae bloom appeared. I monitor feeding, lighting, skimming and water quality closely for signs of the culprit....

Good luck..........chuck

[jimsflies]

Protein skimmers also remove DOC.

Andy shamed me for my myacin endorsing response in Post #4. So I will add, that doing this won't fix the underlying problem and in fact depending on what it is, could make it worse since you will be turning your skimmer off and potentially increasing the load on your tank (due to killing off gram negative bacteria).

If you elect to use any of these products start off with very low doses and only increase the amount you put in your tank till you see the cyano disappear (after a few hours). It is easier to add more than take it back once it is in your system.

[EMUreef]

i appreciate the well thought out answers that actually help provide an answer instead of degrading the person trying to figure out whats wrong.

:thumbsup::

[schminksbro]

Apparently you are talking about me. I apologize if my comments were taken as degrading. I guess I was just shocked at how many people endorse dosing drugs in a reef tank as a means of fixing a cyano problem. In most cases the "quick fix" solution only leads to further problems and I don't wish to see anyone having problems in their tanks.

i appreciate the well thought out answers that actually help provide an answer instead of degrading the person trying to figure out whats wrong.

:thumbsup::

[EMUreef]

Apparently you are talking about me. I apologize if my comments were taken as degrading. I guess I was just shocked at how many people endorse dosing drugs in a reef tank as a means of fixing a cyano problem. In most cases the "quick fix" solution only leads to further problems and I don't wish to see anyone having problems in their tanks.

Actually andy i wasn't talking about you, i was talking about other forums in general, your asking the general questions and give the general this is how you should approach it. Please understand what i wrote wasn't aimed at you at all. I appreciate what everyone has contributed to this thread.

:snorkel::snorkel:

[Sir Patrick]

I would not normally recommend using maracyn at every little out break, but when you have done everything you can, or have read, and its reocuring, I still have to recomend using this product, or when its covering your corals, and starving them out/killing them I will also recomend this product. When the nasty slime becomes detrimental to your corals, or just wont go away, somtimes quick action is needed, and finding the issue or source can be found later.

The cyno is always in your tank, even though you cant see it. I agree- try to find the source of the issue- but once its got a hold in your tank, it can be very hard and take a really long time to get rid of.....even though there is a commonly safe way to get rid of it easily and effectively- maracyn. I have read that cyno can and does carry out photosynthsis. They need no additional nutrition to live. Once it takes hold....it can be a very long drawn out process, and doesnt need to be.

[Sir Patrick]

even if you cant see it, the Cyano is there.

This hobby has many different ways to accomplish cures to issues. As long as the remedy doesn't harm your tank, then go for it. Find a way that you are comfortable with. Chemicals are not the answer to all issues, and I really don't like using them, but sometimes action needs to be fast and effective, with imediate results. Anyone that doesn't feel comfortable using Maracyn, shpuld not use it, but its served me, and many other very well seasoned reefers in the past.

[schminksbro]

I still have to disagree. The nutrient problem that is allowing the cyano to grow is only exacerbated by the lack of protein skimming following the dose. I personally have seen one of the nicest tanks in MI crashed due to the chemical treatment of cyano. In the short term a turkey baster can be a great tool. In the long term the problem needs to be corrected through sound husbandry techniques. Cyano is one of the easiest pests to fight. Remove the nutrients, increase the flow. Done.

[Sir Patrick]

There are many different causes of cyno outbreaks- and not all are always the reason. This can be very difficult to combat. And even more difficult to diagnose, especially when its in full bloom, and everything you can do is done....and it still wont go away. Once its got hold, you can do whatever you want, and it might just refuse to let go.

As stated, cyno seams to prefer low flow areas, although I have seen it grow in spots where a powerhead is blasting, blowing in the flow, and spread.

It can be caused by high DOC's, yet just a quick parameter spike, come and gone, like a snail death, can do the same in a low nutrient tank.

Low alk, or ph can be an underlying cause- but your ph/alk can be perfect, and you can still get an outbreak.

Stepping up you water changes can fuel the fire- but doesnt always.

So many variables....with no certain answer....Its been a few years, but I have researched cyno, and a few other algea/bacterias very well- and have yet to come up with an absolute answer- or even a few absolute answers on the subject- so far just a lot of speculation. Maybe I have missed something? It has been a while. If there has been direct concrete findings to the cause to be gotten to the bottom of, please share. I am very interested in reading it. Until then, I will stick to my tried and proven "Band Aid" especialy when the health my corals are involved.

[Sir Patrick]

I have seen many of the nicest tanks in michigan helped greatly with maracyn. Have heard of many overdosed, or improperly dosed, and crashed. Also have heard of quite a few others crashed by chemical treatments- but have yet to personally witness it with an erethromyacin. There are many slime removers out there- and they are not all the same.

[Sir Patrick]

Side note- I do not recommend turning off your skimmer while dosing. I have always left mine on and adjusted it to skim very dry, in an attempt to aerate the water without taking too much of the antibiotic out of the water column. Agressive surface agitation is also recommended. I forgot to add these 2 pieces of information, as it was talked about with Heidi in person.


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[EMUreef]

alright well i went with the treatment route. sorry but i feel like i was doing everything to combat it and i wasn't sure what i was doing was gonna help or how long it was gonna help.

the stuff i got had 8 packets of this junk 200mg's in each pack i think. i ended up putting 4 packets in the first night, the next morning i put 2 more packets in fallow by one more packet at night.

Did a 10g water chnage the fallowing day after blowing off the rocks of any dead cyano.

today most is gone, any left over stuff has turn green.

fish seem fine, one coral has a problem with this, only browned but i dont feel to worried about it.

[MyNemesis]

I dosed half the recommended dosage for mytotal water volume Wednesday pm. Erythromyacin 1/4 tsp scoop per 20 gallons of water is the full dose which would have been six scoops. Because it can brown out some acros, I went with half dosage or three scoops. Most of the red slimmy bubbly crap I have been dealing with for the past month or so was gone within a matter of hours. It was recommended to leave it in the system for three days with the skimmer off, not running carbon, etc. By today, even the algae that was in areas of low flow, is gone. I have a ton of bubbles in my sump. I turned on the skimmer at the usual setting and you might as well forget that. Empty the skimmer cup, put it back on, turn around, empty the skimmer cup and so on. I am told the carbon is what removes it from the system, so I will be cleaning my frag tank tonight, replacing all the water and leaving it off the system. In the morning I will do the rest of a total 35% water change in the display tank, fire up the media reactors with new carbon, etc.
I have been very pleased with the results. I was beside myself trying to get on top of this. Following the same routine for years, nothing dying and for whatever reason, something is out of whack and you have a problem. I spent a ton doing water changes and the dang algae killed off most of the macroalgaes in my refugium, which then got broken up and some wound up half dead in the display tank. I noticed no browning of any acro. Many of my LPS look significantly expanded and healthier. I have noticed no adverse affect on any animal in the tank, so in that regard, I believe the half dose to have been a prudent move. I will let you know how the foam battle goes. Have a safe and Happy holiday weekend, all

[Sir Patrick]

Mynemesis-

Did you do a 1/2 dose of the freshwater dose or the saltwater dose?

I had to really restrict the air flow, and raise the skimmer cup to the max, to try and get a dry skim, while using this product. Getting the skimmer adjusted can be difficult.

John and russ- Keep us posted on your results.

[Heidi]

So I love this thread! You guys are all so nice about your different opinions and that is like Russ said pretty rare in the forum scene. This is why I love Captive Reefs!! I have bought the erythromycin. I have not used it yet. I had changed my dose of MB7 to double at the time I did the lights out and I am still dosing double MB7. I also am on a very low maintenance dose of vodka (3ml a day) where as I was not dosing vodka at all for a while thinking that would help get rid of the cyano. I checked my phosphates and nitrates today and both are reading zero. I vacuumed my sand bed where it is growing and comes up in chunks pretty easily but will be back tomorrow. For flow so you all know I like a lot. I have 2 750 and 2 1400 power-heads. So as far as dead spots... ask my mushrooms... there are no dead spots. So I am just going to hold out for a little while and see... see if they don't get any worse... if they start going away... or maybe they will like they did before get so bad that it looks like my whole substrate is purple and it starts climbing the glass.. I can't get a good full tank shot or I would show you but you can see them in most of my recent pictures in my thread around my coral...never on (that was the dinos got rid of them with no light for 3 days.)
Great thread
Glad I started this one :)
Heidi

[Heidi]

YouTube - &#x202a;Cyano.&#x202c;&rlm;
Cyano.. cause I can't get good pictures I made a video.

[CableGuy]

Heidi if your talking about *red slim algae* I used ChemiClean. Works wonderfully. 2 days and it's gone!

This stuff is amazing... used it twice and worked both times amazingly.

[schminksbro]

Do those of you who have chosen to go this route intend to fix the problem that caused the cyano to start with? After the dose and the miracle that follows what is the plan to prevent the inevitable return of the cyano? Is there a plan to remove the excess nutrients left from weeks of poor or no protein skimming? In 6-8 months (possibly longer) when the drug finally works its' way out of your systems is the plan to just dose again? I notice almost everyone who says they have used this method says they have done so multiple times. Could it be that there is a consistent husbandry issue which is compensated for with drugs but never learned from? IMHO every issue with our tanks is an opportunity to learn something. Is the lesson here to just dose and not worry about the underlying reasons for the outbreak to begin with?
Obviously I expressed my concerns with this "Quick fix" method earlier in this thread. I am hoping to possibly steer the thread in a direction that will help others avoid the very serious risk posed by putting drugs in a reef tank.

[EMUreef]

Do those of you who have chosen to go this route intend to fix the problem that caused the cyano to start with? After the dose and the miracle that follows what is the plan to prevent the inevitable return of the cyano? Is there a plan to remove the excess nutrients left from weeks of poor or no protein skimming? In 6-8 months (possibly longer) when the drug finally works its' way out of your systems is the plan to just dose again? I notice almost everyone who says they have used this method says they have done so multiple times. Could it be that there is a consistent husbandry issue which is compensated for with drugs but never learned from? IMHO every issue with our tanks is an opportunity to learn something. Is the lesson here to just dose and not worry about the underlying reasons for the outbreak to begin with?
Obviously I expressed my concerns with this "Quick fix" method earlier in this thread. I am hoping to possibly steer the thread in a direction that will help others avoid the very serious risk posed by putting drugs in a reef tank.


whats poor skimming?

[schminksbro]

Overflowing skimmer pulling nothing. It is one of the very common side effects of dosing Red Slime Remover, Chemi-clean, ect... In some cases it can last for weeks.

whats poor skimming?

[Sir Patrick]

Very good direction for this thread to take- I agree Andy.

I always change out my carbon, once the slime is gone, and change it again 2 weeks later, instead of the month or so I usually let it go

I also vacume any detrius that collects, as always, when I do my water change.

I make it a point to do a water change, the usual 10-20%, very soon after this stuff is gone, but not before-and then do another the very next week- and make it a priority not to skip a week.

I also continue to wet skim, watching closely my salinity, because as many of us know- wet skimmate can cause your salinity to get higher than you might expect, depending your water testing methods when changing water.

I like to dose it with a lights out period also- because this dose of maracyn does not always remove it all, and cyno, which can become photosynthetic, is best weakened with the lack of light also, rather than a second, third, or more dose of medication. The more meds you add to your tank, the more you will need to remove.

So far, I have not noticed any negative results in not following these guidlines, and leaving it in with very little effort to remove it, as I have not always followed them myself in the past, but will not say there are none. In recent years I have learned- Best to keep anything that doesnt belong in your tank, out of your tank, unless necessary- and only as long as necessary. Its always a good bet.

[larryandlaura]

Well put sirpatrick!

---------- Post added at 09:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 AM ----------

Any updates on the battle?

[Heidi]

Well, I have still yet to dose the meds. I bought it and it is sitting in my fish cabinet. I have noticed that it is not growing and spreading like it was. When at it's worst it was needing to be vacuumed up everyday as it was thick on the sand bed everywhere. Now it is thiner and has spread to cover my whole bed. I haven't done a waterchange this week (was due on Monday for the once a week "30g", maybe this has helped??? I have been dosing 3ml vodka and 2 capfuls of MB7 per day. I can snap a quick pic later when I update my other thread... Thanks for the great discussion and for following along.
Heidi

[Sir Patrick]

From what I have read- water changes can, and usually do, fuel the fire- even at 0 tds fresh water measurments. Good thinking on letting the tank go, as long as all the other tank husbandry techniques are in line- and everything else mentioned before are in check.

Odds are, somthing is fueling this stuff- and once it gets hold it can take some time to combat. Sounds like you are on the right track.

[Rabidgoose]

From what I have read- water changes can, and usually do, fuel the fire- even at 0 tds fresh water measurments.....

I would be interested in reading this article if you will post a link SP

thanks.........chuck