Sump design- feedback wanted

[Titus]

I am working on designing my first sump and want feedback. The space I have to work with a closet under the stairs. The space for the sump is about 36" x 36" x 48", accessed through a 20' wide door. Nothing can have a diagonal greater than 36" if it is to be turned once in the closet. I am thinking I will utilize 2 20g Longs and 2 10g tanks. Here is the 3D models I created.

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/7286/sump1.jpg
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6487/sump2.jpg
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/7652/sump3.jpg

Water from the DT flows into the right side of the middle tier by the skimmer, where it goes through a bubble trap to the pump section. The pump section has a large pump that returns water to the DT and a small pump that sends water up to the top tier for the fuge. The fuge flows to a DSB, and then back into the skimmer section. The two 10g tanks at the bottom act as extra overflow room in case something goes wrong, and a top off holding tank.

Feedback welcomed!

[jimsflies]

Great looking depiction! What did you use make it?

Have you considered using your return pump to route flow back through the fuge? It would probably save some energy, possibly reduce heat (one less pump), and simplify a your setup a little with one less piece of equipment.

Also you should be able to calculate the volume you will need for free board and build that into to your sump without needing the extra bottom tank for overflow.

[Titus]

Great looking depiction! What did you use make it?

Have you considered using your return pump to route flow back through the fuge? It would probably save some energy, possibly reduce heat (one less pump), and simplify a your setup a little with one less piece of equipment.

Also you should be able to calculate the volume you will need for free board and build that into to your sump without needing the extra bottom tank for overflow.

I did the modeling with "Sweet Home 3D", which is free. I didn't create any of the objects... I just found the objects HERE (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/search?q=20+long+aquarium&styp=m&scoring=t&btnG=Search&reps=10), downloaded it, and imported it in to Sweet Home. Then I could resize it, move it around, etc.

Tapping off of the return pump is a good idea.. hadn't thought about that.

I agree, on the overflow tank, but I have this fear that something might go wrong that causes the entire top-off tank to pump in to the sump. With the extra overflow tank, it can keep that from causing a mess. Plus the 10g tanks are only $12. :redneck:

[Titus]

I've been giving it more thought and realized I don't want the skimmer down stream of the refugium and DSB. I'm going to have to rearrange things.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 4g using Tapatalk.

[BCTate]

Also you should be able to calculate the volume you will need for free board and build that into to your sump without needing the extra bottom tank for overflow.

+1 ^ With the overflow tank setup you currently are planning, you would need to pump the overflowed water back into the sump after a power outage or when you turn off the return for any reason. If you build the sump to allow for it, there is no need for the extra work getting the water back into the system!

[BCTate]

BTW...Thanks for the tip on Sweet Home 3D! I find Google Sketchup a little chaotic to work with, I will have to give this a try.

[Titus]

OK... v1.01...

Changes:

1) Eliminated the second pump. The DT overflow now has a T and ball valve allowing me to divert a portion of unskimmed water to the refugium/DSB tank.

2) My silly extra overflow capacity tank has been eliminated as I hadn't thought about auto recovery of that water when the power comes back on.

3) The skimmer and return pump have swapped sides to clean up plumbing.

4) The pump chamber has been enlarged to increase it's overflow capacity


http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3774/sumpsetupv101p1.jpg

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8186/sumpsetupv101p2.jpg

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/7296/sumpsetupv101p3.jpg

[jimsflies]

When you design your overflow and return if you get a siphon break in it, you should be able to minimize the volume of water that flows back to the sump. (You want to do this anyways so that corals don't sit out of water if they are near the top.)

[Titus]

When you design your overflow and return if you get a siphon break in it, you should be able to minimize the volume of water that flows back to the sump. (You want to do this anyways so that corals don't sit out of water if they are near the top.)

Yep... I'm just always afraid of flooding, especially with the new wood flooring about to go in. I tend to look for the double failsafe solutions. lol

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 4g using Tapatalk.

[jimsflies]

Yep... I'm just always afraid of flooding, especially with the new wood flooring about to go in. I tend to look for the double failsafe solutions. lol



So your a belt and suspenders kind of guy? :propellerhead:

[Titus]

v1.02.

I improved on the inflow with separate Ball valves below the T. I also add rock pile towers at all of the places where there is the potential for bubbles to be added to the system.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3332/sumpsetupv102p1.jpg
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9004/sumpsetupv102p2.jpg

---------- Post added at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------


So your a belt and suspenders kind of guy? :propellerhead:

Perhaps in spirit ;-)

[Flynnstone]

food for thought..

if you were to level the top two tanks, or at least reduce it, add dividers directly in the middle of each tank, you could have the skimmer in the front left corner with the water from the display entering it. water then travel to the back left tank ( through a bulkhead) = algae chamber, overflow to back right = sand bed, through a bulkhead to front right that would be where the return pump would set.
this would allow all of the water to get filtered all of the time, and would not waste any of your pod population back to the display. although it wont look as esthetically pleasing

[Titus]

food for thought..

if you were to level the top two tanks, or at least reduce it, add dividers directly in the middle of each tank, you could have the skimmer in the front left corner with the water from the display entering it. water then travel to the back left tank ( through a bulkhead) = algae chamber, overflow to back right = sand bed, through a bulkhead to front right that would be where the return pump would set.
this would allow all of the water to get filtered all of the time, and would not waste any of your pod population back to the display. although it wont look as esthetically pleasing


I have been reading a lot on design... articles like THIS (http://www.reef-eden.net/DSBs.htm)and THIS (http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html)... Some of the things I have read that I am trying to achieve include the following...


flow rate through a refugium should be slower than through the sump
flow rate through a DSB should be slower than through the sump
Flow to DSB should not be pre-skimmed as it will remove uneaten DT food that can feed critters
Allow the refugium/DSB water to flow back to DT without being skimmed first to allow for some Amphipods and Copepods to get pumped into the DT

[Flynnstone]

flow rate through a refugium should be slower than through the sump
flow rate through a DSB should be slower than through the sump
flow rate should be based on Length x Width x Height of the fuge. each will vary depending on these sizes to reach their maximun efficientcy
Flow to DSB should not be pre-skimmed as it will remove uneaten DT food that can feed critters
but it will also allow more waste to enter and get trapped the bed, that can over time become a nutrient sink, that is why many people use filter socks or skim in the first chamber
Allow the refugium/DSB water to flow back to DT without being skimmed first to allow for some Amphipods and Copepods to get pumped into the DT
i agree with this statement 100% , but it contradicts the above statement where it says not to skim prior to the DSB.


i am not shooting down your design, just giving different points of view, so that you will be 100% happy with your design when you go to build it.
awesome sketch up by the way !!! very impressive.

[Titus]

OK... you are right.. looking back at several articles, some talk about the importance of not pre skimming the DSB and some talk about not post skimming it. I guess it comes down to differences of opinion. Not sure what to do now. :doh:

On a brighter note, I picked up 2 20L tanks for $32.99/ea yesterday, and got one drilled in the top right corner with a 1" bulkhead installed. I'm going to pick up a threaded bulkhead screen to screw in to it.

[Titus]

OK... I keep going back and forth reading more theory, and then looking at lots of pictures of things people are actually successfully using and decided to eliminate a bunch of stuff.

- The 10 g top off tank underneath is gone and the whole rig is sitting lower now. I will still add some sort of auto top off, but I am keeping it out of the design and won't try to have it part of the stack.
- As much as I loved the idea of a whole host of critters living in a DSB, I finally gave in to the realization that I am too green to this stuff to successfully implement it. I have made the upper tank all refugium, with a thin layer of sand, some live rock, and cheto... basically the same formula I see in 90% of fuges I see pics of.
- After seeing countless setups with very little work done to control micro bubbles beyond the standard bubble trap between the skimmer and return, I began to wonder if it would be necessary to do all of the extra bubble towers. Then I visited a friends house that had similar in and out GPH and similar layout, and he had no microbubble issues. He suggested I build it without the towers, and start running water through the system. If there are issues, I can tweak it to address them before going live with the tank.
- The piping is there just to represent the flow. I couldn't find 3d models for most of the plumbing parts I am considering and made no attempt to approximate pipe size/type, valve type, Ts, etc.

So here is v1.03
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4168/sumpsetupv103p1.jpg
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/4674/sumpsetupv103p2.jpg

[jimsflies]

On the overflow out of the refugium, you'll likely want some sort of weir as well as a bubble trap where it drops into the pump chamber.

[Titus]

On the overflow out of the refugium, you'll likely want some sort of weir as well as a bubble trap where it drops into the pump chamber.

Yeah... I am going to have some extra baffles of different sizes on hand and see what is needed and where after I flow test the system.