Fuge help

[systemfan15]

I need to know what exactly I should put in my small CPR hang-on refugium. I'm getting ready to put fish in my tank after I come back from vacation in a few weeks after I lost ALL of my fish to ich :( . It comes with the pumps, power heads and all. I just need to know what to grow in it and which inverts to add. As I said its a small 13.5L X 4.5 W X x L

[graphixx]

I would put some LR rubble in it and some cheato. the LR will give the pods a safe place to live and populate and the cheato is a great nutrient export.

[systemfan15]

what exactly are pods, i have an idea but im not sure

[davejnz]

Pods are just slang for the small crustacean like inverts that populate a reef tank.When your lights are out,shine a flashlight in your tank and you will probably see some amphipods moveing about on the LR.

[systemfan15]

Ok, so all tanks have pods? My tank isn't exactly a reef yet, just live rock, crustaceans, and i did have fish but they all died. So all live rock has pods? Also, what else should i have in the tank.

Also, the reason why I'm gettin the refugium is to lower my nitrate levels, how does it do this? Right now my seaclone 100, and 3 biofilters are what is filtering my tank, will the refugium be able to filter well enough so I wont need my bio-filters anymore? Do, i need more than live rock to filter my entire tank? And how exactly does the refuium fitler??

Additional Info: 55 gal tank, starfish, 15 hermit crabs, 15 snails, coral banded shrimp, emerald crab 50 lbs live rock.

[graphixx]

the way that works is that your LR actually acts as a filter. you have nitrifying bacteria that lives in the rocks and the sand, they break down the bad stuff in the tank. and yes your LR has pods. they live and breed in the LR.

[jerryc]

the way that works is that your LR actually acts as a filter. you have nitrifying bacteria that lives in the rocks and the sand, they break down the bad stuff in the tank. and yes your LR has pods. they live and breed in the LR.



I will add to a little to a good post :-)
Most all live rock comes with pods on it..
But as you add livestock Thea can all be consumed by your fish faster
thin reproduction can take place. :roll:
Your Rufugium will give the pods a place of safety to multiply with out
getting eat :D

[KG]

No offense, but since you just got over ich, you'll want to leave that tank fishless for at least 6 weeks to break the cycle. Also, ich is almost always introduced into a ST from lack of QTing. Below is an article you might find very interesting. Good luck!

KG

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

[systemfan15]

I wasn't planning on putting any new fish in til i get back from FL which wont be for about 20 some days. And all of my fish were removed from the show tank about 20 days ago, so i'm sure the ich will be gone. Also, can someone answer my MAIN question..How exactly does the refugium filter the aqurium. And also, will I need my millenium bio filters as well? And do I only need live rock in my refugium. Now to sum things up... I need a refugium, my live rock, and my protein skimmer. Is that all the filtration I need in my 55 gal??

[jerryc]

The Micro algae you put in the refugium takes up nutrients as Thea grow
Thais removing them as you pron the micro.

And yes at least in my opinion the live rock- skimmer and refugium is all
you need

[systemfan15]

[quote="jerryc"]The Micro algae you put in the refugium takes up nutrients as Thea grow
Thais removing them as you pron the micro.

So does this mean that I should not grow micro algae? Also what are some other options of plant life I can grow in the refugium that would benefit the overall tank? Would I be able to add my purple-up supplements to my refugium?

Thank you so much for the help!

[jerryc]

No it means you wont to grow it as it is removing nutrients as it grows

Nutrients is the main risen you get bad algae outbreaks in the display

And yes it is a good place to add calcium and other things to the tank
i don't us purple-up or anything like it

[davejnz]

Refugium's can be used to serve differnt purposes.Some people grow macroalgae like chaeto or Caulerpa in them and harverst it thus exporting nutrients out of the tank.Some people use them as a dedicated place to grow microalgae that pods feed on.LR rubble is excellent for this type of fuge.It is kept free of fish/crabs/corals thus allowing the pods to reproduce without predation.Another example of a fuge would just be a remote deep sand bed that is not lit.The DSB fuge is used solely for denitification by the anaerobic bacteria that live in the bottom depths of the sandbed.

[davejnz]

Also, can someone answer my MAIN question..How exactly does the refugium filter the aqurium.
Bacteria provide the majority of the nitrification/denitrification in a reef tank.There are 2 different types of bacteria responsible for each.Aerobic(oxygen living) bacteria are capable of converting ammonia to nitrite,then nitrite to nitrate.Anaerobic(no oxygen) bacteria complete the cycle by processing nitrate.Aerobic bacteria will grow on just about any substrate in your tank.Anaerobic bacteria are only found in the low oxygen zones that are in the inner pore structure of LR and the bottom layers of sandbeds.
Algae is also a means to filter water.Algae is capable of uptaking Nitrate and other dissolved nutrients from the water thus filtering it.By growing algae and removing it,your exporting nutrients from your tank.

[systemfan15]

Ok, now what if I wanted to grow some mangroves or something like that. would this benefit my tank in any way? Also, would I be able to grow something like that in my show tank? I'm not exactly sure if that would mimic a natural reef environment with fish, crustaceans, annemones, and mangroves or would it?

[KG]

I wasn't planning on putting any new fish in til i get back from FL which wont be for about 20 some days. And all of my fish were removed from the show tank about 20 days ago, so i'm sure the ich will be gone. [/color]

40 days should do it, but six to eight weeks would be best. No offense, but I don't think you get the jist of my post, which is if you continue to add fish without QTing them, you are going to keep getting ich. It may not happen the first or second time you put something in there, but eventually it will happen.

How exactly does the refugium filter the aqurium.

I think your question on what to put in a fuge has been pretty well answered, but just in case: aragonite (sand), live rock (optional), macro algaes, and maybe some mangrove plants. A fuge "filters" the water by removing nitrates and phosphates via the macro algaes and mangrove plants. The live rock, both in your tank and in your fuge, provide the biological filtration that will help naturally reduce nitrates.

And also, will I need my millenium bio filters as well?

They won't hurt especially until your fuge has been set-up and matured.

And do I only need live rock in my refugium.

No, not if your live rock is your only form of biological filtration, ie no other mechanical filtration of live sand bed. it would be too small of an area for the amount of live rock, total, that would be necessary for this.

Now to sum things up... I need a refugium, my live rock, and my protein skimmer. Is that all the filtration I need in my 55 gal??

I wouldn't say a fuge is a need. A skimmer may or may not be depending on if it's FO or reef. Live rock is always good, but also not a need if you use some other media to grow the beneficial bacteria or employ a DSB.

Good Luck!

KG

Edited to add: That skimmer is a POS. Might consider upgrading to a Remora or Coralife Superskimmer.

[davejnz]

Come on guys,lets keep this civil.I don't think his qusetion was clearly answered thus my response.His skimmer might not be one of the better one's but thats all he's got right now.
"I wouldn't say a fuge is a need. A skimmer may or may not be depending on if it's FO or reef. Live rock is always good, but also not a need if you use some other media to grow the beneficial bacteria or employ a DSB."
I agree that fuges aren't needed,,my last 4 reef tanks includeing my current 2 do not have fuges yet i have undetectabl NO3 and PO4 levels.I also feed heavily,rarely fo WC's and
have used/am useing 3 totally different methods(DSB,SSB,and BB)to run a reef.
tank.
"And also, will I need my millenium bio filters as well?

They won't hurt especially until your fuge has been set-up and matured"
I disagree,all that is needed for good biological filtration is LR/and or LS and plenty of water movement in the tank.External Bio filters disrupt the balance between aerobic/anaerobic bacteria in the tank.In the end,they lead to excess NO3 levels and the mechanical filter pads in them are even worse.

[KG]

I don't think I was uncivil, but I do detect a little bit of hostility in his posts. I merely wanted to point out a huge mistake of not QTing and the consequences of not doing so and he was clearly ungrateful and rude about it. I think everyone did mention what should go in a fuge and a lot of it is personal choice. And last, that skimmer is a POS. No if, ands, or buts about it.

KG

[davejnz]

Nor do I think you were,I just wanted to get his thread back on the right track. :D

[davejnz]

Also, the reason why I'm gettin the refugium is to lower my nitrate levels, how does it do this? .
From what i just reviewed in this thread,the question wasn't clearly answered.Perhaps he might of came off the wrong way but then again this thread does not pertain to Ich or Q-tine so perhaps your post might of came off the wrong way too.Anyways,back to the discussion.

[KG]

I would put some LR rubble in it and some cheato. the LR will give the pods a safe place to live and populate and the cheato is a great nutrient export.

This was the response he originally received. I only wanted to add that the lack of QTing will most certainly spell disaster and always seems to do so after lots of time and money has been invested. He can spend thousands on a filtration system and have an abundance of life in his fuge, but by adding one fish without QTing he can wipe it all out -as he's done already. Ich is however completely unavoidable if you have the information - which I was trying to share.

[dakar]

i am also new to this. i have asked questions of many topics. but dude read a book!!! They are great and you don't have to keep beating a dead horse. I don't think you have been clear with your questions from the start and that is why you are getting ticked off with your answers. I never knew what a refugium was either but i did a few searches on them and i now know how they work. sorry if i come off like a jerk.

Okay, after recieving serveral reports about the quoted post, it looks like it's time to step in here and refresh the basis and spirit for which CaptiveReefing was founded. We've left the the site title plain to make a point, this is "A friendly world to share thoughts and ideas."

Yes the same question may have been asked and answered several times over, in several different contexts, but the simple fact is this , a question was asked, provide an answer if you like or not, a link to a previous thread would work far better than advising someone to look elsewhere forinformation that is freely available here. If a member is unfamiliar with the search functions on the board (it it quite extensive and thorough) and how to use them, why not volunteer to assist instead?

This is NOT berating anyone, as everyone has the right to thier own opinions and is free to express them here, however we must insist that curtousy be extended to and from all members.

Quite frankly, I would rather type the contents of every book onto the foums so that the information is freely avialable to all without having to 'buy a book!', after all electrons can be 100% recycled.

We (the staff and members collectively) have strived to keep this a friendly evironment for one and all.

Let's bring this thread back around to the topic at hand.

[Reef_Angel]

:goodpost: Very eloquently stated Dakar-Dave! He's so good with words isn't he? Nice and subtle, but making sure he gets his point across. "A friendly world to share thoughts and ideas." That says a mouthful, doesn't it? In addition, I have to say that this site, not only in the "rules" states that "No question, no matter how simple it may seem to more experienced reefers, is a major question for someone just starting out." What really got things stirred up here was when Max Fischer came up with the idea that System Fan's question has been answered many times before, and that he should quit bothering us with all these questions! I don't see any sign's hanging on CR's homepage that states, "Only the best reefer's are welcome here!" or "Only welcome if you've read all the books on reefing and don't need help!". That would be ludicrous, and you'll never hear that coming from us ever! Most books on any hobby assume you have enough knowledge to understand some serious stuff. I don't know about you all, but if someone starts talking way over my head when they could just give a simple well stated answer to a question, I lose interest and generally will give up on that source of medium.....but I probably wrote my grocery list out in the mean time. :-? You may just learn from it, but Is it just practical knowledge or applied in a way that is understandable so someone new can jump right in getting both feet wet! Some people are great with books, but I'd say a good percentage will read the information, and come away with a lot of technical info that they aren't quite ready for, and may dampen their desire to go further. Book knowledge is great, and I believe in it wholeheartedly if I trust the source. If you are pretty new at reefing, which source should you trust to get the best answers? Isn't it nice when someone gives you a practical explanation, and 3 or more people back that person up, and add a few of their own ideas in as well? Does a book give you the emotional support you need to hear when you've had a great success? Pat your back with some kind words like, "I've been there too.", and then help get you back on track when you were about to just give it all up? I know that I have had encouragement when I wanted to quit, and I in turn have helped many that were going to throw in the towel and give up. I think the majority of CR's members use their experience and failures in hopes of saving their fellow reefer from making some unpleasant costly mistake by attempting to go it alone with no support. We here at CR find that unacceptable! Why should anyone be made to feel "stupid" about asking a question we all know we've asked ourselves before? It doesn't matter how many have asked the question. We will answer those questions over and over, and the only thing it costs us was a little of our time, knowledge and concern. It also serves as a good refresher for ourselves & everyone who may be interested in it. We're all continually saving info, updating info and the like on our own personal hard drive (the brain of course). There are always new & fresh ideas that come from great people on a message board. Now that's the book I know I can count on. Once you've gotten that base information, a book may come in handy. At least you'll have some clue as to what it's telling you after youve learned bits and pieces all around you. The point I'm attempting to make here is that negativity is the sort of thing we hoped to end by bringing Captive Reefing to life! Helping out a fellow reefer is not only rewarding to ones personal self worth, but also to Captive Reefing.

Maybe Dave & I don't say it often enough, but it's YOU....the members here that have made this a successful site! IMO, it wasn't what Davejnz, KG, or System Fan that prompted disagreements, causing others to report the incident to us. That's what we woke up to today as we turned on computers to check on the site. Generally all is well, but my screen was full of reports against the individual Dakar quoted the post from. We deleted the post made by maxfischer, but then after re-reading the entire thread again after the post was deleted, it sounded like KG, Davejnz & the poster- SystemFan. were responsible for the behavior that happened in this thread. I don't agree. I won't sit back and ignore this, and could not & will not let that happen. Hopefully, after reading my long winded post, I sincerely hope that maxfischer can comes back to the thread with an apology to those involved. If you upset the peacefulness that comes with Captive Reefing, you've stepped on the toes of everyone here that abides by our mission. Please realize that it will be worth your while to speak up and apologize for the rather rude response you gave to SystemFan. Keep in mind... we have, but have seldom used the "3 Strikes Policy" set in place, since the member's here respect us for wanting a peaceful, informative & fun environment for fellow reefers to join in. You can always redeem yourself by making an effort to right what went wrong.....especially since those who inadvertently look guilty when they really weren't, but got things straight between them without much fuss, while you seem to have disappeared from the entire picture. You didn't disappear though because you were reported by several users who witnessed your unhelpful statement. Use the PM button and jot them all a quick note with a kind apology for upsetting this Reef!

If I may ... maxfischer's post has been :banned: in this forum.

maxfischer wrote:
i am also new to this. i have asked questions of many topics. but dude read a book!!! They are great and you don't have to keep beating a dead horse. I don't think you have been clear with your questions from the start and that is why you are getting ticked off with your answers. I never knew what a refugium was either but i did a few searches on them and i now know how they work. sorry if i come off like a jerk.

If we need to lock this post, we certainly will. It would be a shame since our members that helped SystemFan did an excellent job, and good answers are a shame to waste!

Respectfully Submitted,
Reef_Angel ~ Administrator

[systemfan15]

I don't think I was uncivil, but I do detect a little bit of hostility in his posts. I merely wanted to point out a huge mistake of not Quoting and the consequences of not doing so and he was clearly ungrateful and rude about it. I think everyone did mention what should go in a fudge and a lot of it is personal choice. And last, that skimmer is a do not. No if, ands, or buts about it.

KG

KG, I in no way intended on being hostile or impolite. I asked a question about 3 times and didn't get the answer I was exactly looking for so I made sure to get that point across. I was just making sure that everyone understood what I was confused about and that issue is now taken care of. I'm sorry but I'm completely new to this and I'm sorry if my skimmer isn't up to par. But I do not think you had to say it is a POS. I'm not exactly sure which brands and models I like and don't like, I'm a beginner and I have to find that out on my own. I researched for probably 5 or 6 months before I even bought my tank and I understood the very basics but it will take time for me to learn the ins and outs of this hobby. And while I am on the topic, this is my HOBBY, not my job so I am not going to be researching new things every day.
To sum things up, I apologize for being rude. It was not my intention. Sorry.

[KG]

I apologize too, it's just that I don't like repeating what everyone else might have said and I do think I'd be remiss if I didn't point out to you the mistake of not QTing. I hope you found everything you needed for your fuge. Some stores, especially on-line, sell fuge packages. Might want to check them out. All I have is a DSB, 2" of bioballs, some macro algaes, and LOTS of pods. As far as skimmers go, save your money, look in want ads, e-bay etc., for an ASM, Remora, or Coralife Superskimmer. They key to a really good skimmer is the needle wheel technology. Good luck!

KG