MB7 and Probiotic Reefing

[TanksEveryWhere]

Some history on the system first....Tank is about a year old, but more like three. It started as a 55, than I down sized to a 20 long for a move. As soon as I was done w/ the move I bought a 40B and that's as it is now. I have most the same sand and LR adding some here and there. Since I moved my hippo to a bigger home I have had all sorts of algae, so here it is.
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad122/kimberlee21/001-20.jpg

And some up close of the recent algae problems
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad122/kimberlee21/004-17.jpg
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad122/kimberlee21/005-13.jpg

I started using the MB7 6 days ago at half the recommended dose for my water volume. I have also been dosing BRS 2 part alk and am keeping track of that. 8.2 at the moment, which is higher than I have been able to keep it lately.
My nitrates have gone up, which I suspect is because the nitrates are being freed up by manual removal and dosing the MB7. Phosphates are the same zero.

A couple questions....

First if we are dosing bacteria to and it needs to consume carbon to consume phosphates & nitrates, than on an established system why are people waiting 2 weeks to dose the vodka (the carbon source)?

Second how do I raise the PH, because it is at a low of 7.6?

[Sir Patrick]

First if we are dosing bacteria to and it needs to consume carbon to consume phosphates & nitrates, than on an established system why are people waiting 2 weeks to dose the vodka (the carbon source)?

Second how do I raise the PH, because it is at a low of 7.6?

There are plenty of sources of carbon currently in your tank for the MB7 (bacteria) to use. You need to get the population of bacteria up tot he point that your system can handle a much more efficiant carbon source such as Vodka, vinger, sugar, bio-fuel, ect. If you dont get the added bacteria (MB7) up to enough of a population, bad bacterias can outcompete and cause cyno blooms and other nasty stuff.

I maintain PH by topping off w/ Kalkwasser.

[Sir Patrick]

I am no pro at ID'ing algea, but-

It wouldnt hurt to monitor your Mag, and keep that up with Kent Tech-M Magnesium. Not only will a stable mag help keeping Alk, Calc and PH right, it could help with some of the algea issues you are experiancing.

---------- Post added at 10:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------

Oh- Almost forgot-

That is going to be a really nice tank, once you get it under control!!!

[TanksEveryWhere]

I am no pro at ID'ing algea, but-

It wouldnt hurt to monitor your Mag, and keep that up with Kent Tech-M Magnesium. Not only will a stable mag help keeping Alk, Calc and PH right, it could help with some of the algea issues you are experiancing.

---------- Post added at 10:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------

Oh- Almost forgot-

That is going to be a really nice tank, once you get it under control!!!

Thank you, it was really nice and the corals still look good.

I didn't realize there was already a enough carbon in the system at the moment...knowing that the rest makes sense. Did a 10% WC today (part of weekly maintenance), and tested everything, Mag was at 1300. It is usually about there. Alk Issues have been due to an increased sps load.

[dputt88]

Ever thought of getting a turbo snail, or some astrea* snails? I know you still need to be proactive rather than reactive but it cant hurt to have something eat that, ultimately leaving it up to the skimmer to pull it out.

[TanksEveryWhere]

Ever thought of getting a turbo snail, or some astrea* snails? I know you still need to be proactive rather than reactive but it cant hurt to have something eat that, ultimately leaving it up to the skimmer to pull it out.

Hippo tang was doing a much better job than I knew obviously. Thinking sea hare, I have more than enough tanks for it to live happy and weel fed. Not that my tanks are covered in this stuff, but w/ 5 systems I should be good

[dputt88]

When I started reefing i had a problem with Algae that was worse than that, the hare i used wiped out my 90 gal in 3 days. I would recommend not keeping it long term but that's up to you. they eat such unbelievable amounts.

[TanksEveryWhere]

I think the MB7, manual removal and WC will do ....just need a little patients.

[TanksEveryWhere]

So today is day 9 using the MB7, and I am pleased so far. The water is defiantly more clear than it was, and my skimmer is just skimming away. The hair algae is growing fast as ever, but I am hopeful that will slow down soon. I'm considering using it to start off the stock tank once that is all ready for water.

[Sir Patrick]

I'm considering using it to start off the stock tank once that is all ready for water.

Using the water, live rock,or starting a new system on just MB7?

I have changed entire systems with no cycle using parts of the old system. It can be done, if done right, with minimal mini cycle.

The PO4 reduction qualities of the pro-biotic approach happens much later than the carbon cycle part. When it comes to algea, be VERY patient.

Hope someone will chime in on the n03 vs. po4 variables and how they are effected in the pro biotic approaches. I could type my experiances, but they may be far from true and i know there are members on here much more experianced that can lead you better than I can.

[TanksEveryWhere]

I am no pro at ID'ing algea, but-

It wouldnt hurt to monitor your Mag, and keep that up with Kent Tech-M Magnesium. Not only will a stable mag help keeping Alk, Calc and PH right, it could help with some of the algea issues you are experiancing.

---------- Post added at 10:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------

Oh- Almost forgot-

That is going to be a really nice tank, once you get it under control!!!

I test mag regularly and have read up some on using it too control the algae. Right now it is at 1300 and stays between 1250 and 1300. If I remember right to use it effectively against HA it needs to be about 1600? Could I raise it while dosing the MB7? or would that be too many changes to the system? Can I use BRS 2 part, because I already have that one, although I know that kents mag product has that extra zing too it that makes it the more effective product against the algae. Also I am 5 days from starting the carbon dosing, and while I have thought of raising the mag I am kind of waiting until after I start the carbon. I figure 2 weeks after that change to the system, would be a safe time to start dosing mag. And the algae I am dealing w/ is a combo of HA and Bryopsis.

And this tank was amazing before I move the tang that was eating all this crap. Thanks...I am sure we will get it there again.

[Sir Patrick]

Good thinking on trying not to change too many things at once. I would get the MB7 dosing down, then tweek the Mag. The PO4 isnt going to go down right away with the MB7. It can take a few months before you see real results.

Also, on the Mag topic. Not just any type of Mag suppliment will work, and not on all algeas. The Tech-M will work on Bryopsis, and not other algeas.

I am no pro on algea ID, but it looked like some of your algea might have been Bryopsis.

[TanksEveryWhere]

It is hair algae and bryopsis and I might have to give the Kent a go. It would seem I am no longer welcome in my reef, so manual removal is proving to be a B****. My clowns who have always welcomed me are now on the attack, and will be evicted to the stock tank as soon as it is up and cycled. They have gotten bad since they laid that first clutch, and are skilled at finding the softest flesh to tear into.

Today we start the carbon.

[TanksEveryWhere]

What kind of skimmer are you running?

Some no name 1, it's rated for 150 system. Works great on the 40B and produces great.

[TanksEveryWhere]

ok...........

I'll contact the person I got it from and see if they can give me a company at least.

[Rabidgoose]

I'll contact the person I got it from and see if they can give me a company at least.

Post a pic of it, maybe someone will recognize it.

[TanksEveryWhere]

So Aquamaxx makes the pump, not sure if they also make the skimmer the pump came w/.

[TanksEveryWhere]

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c15/fritoy911/Fish/SDC11722.jpg

[TanksEveryWhere]

Found the skimmer ps 1000
Aquarium lighting, aquarium filters, protein skimmers, aquarium pumps, aquarium products (http://www.pacificcoastimports.com/product.cfm?sid=20986912K63229131112102V1352859756 458W71I193I250I90X21059415C291&p=151&cs=products.cfm%3Fsid%3D20986912K63229131112102V13 52859756458W71I193I250I90X21059415C291%26c%3D24%26 kys%3D%26pg%3D1)

[TanksEveryWhere]

Yeah you should be ok with that skimmer for a 40g. Make sure the venturi stays unclogged and as a good air pull, as oxygen is very important when carbon dosing. I don't remember which carbon source did you decide to go with?

Vodka which I've used before so I am comfortable with it, but I was thinking about changing the carbon source every now and than. I don't think for a second that I can switch them regularly, but I was curious if changing the carbon source every now and than would give better results. Say ever 4- 6 months? And how would one go about making that a smooth transition?

[Sir Patrick]

Why not mix the 3 (Vodka, vinager, sugar) and dose?

[TanksEveryWhere]

Why not mix the 3 (Vodka, vinager, sugar) and dose?


FWIW... Vodka could easily fuel that cyano that you already have on the sand. I would not recommend switching the source, find one or a combination and stick to it.

How would I combine more than one?

[TanksEveryWhere]

Sounds good I'll look into it thx. Did you get the results you were aiming for w/ the vinegar, and if you have dosed one or the other for any length of time which one worked better? As far as mixing things together even when it can be done I can't do it. No reason to mix except a lazy day.

Is anyone type of carbon better than the other? If I want to combine 2 should I start both right away or one than the other? Do the different carbon sources have any benefit over the other 2?

[TanksEveryWhere]

Just read up on the vinegar dosing. Seems if I am used to dosing vodka, vinegar should be like getting on a slightly different model bike. Rides a little different, same destination.

[TanksEveryWhere]

Did my WC yesterday 10%, but got lazy and didn't test till today, Here's what I got.

PH 7.8 ALK 6.2 ammonia 0.00 nitrates 5.00 phosphates 0.00 cal 450 mag 1100

[TanksEveryWhere]

Mag is low and I hear raising it by 100 daily is safe, but I'm aiming for 50 ppm daily maybe less. I have never been able to keep my alk above 8 and the norm for my tank is 7. I have read when using this method it is best to keep it lower, so as not to burn the sps corals. Natural sea water is 7 to my understanding so outside of trying to improve growth I never fully understood why the 8-11 range was so important. As far as a low alk # slowing down growth I haven't noticed that. I have a slow growing elephant foot that has doubled in size in 6 months. Easily doubled in size and I see noticeable week to week growth on every coral in the system.

[Sir Patrick]

If you can keep your alk at 7 and keep it relatively stable, you will be good, as far as the pro-biotics and the SPS go.

I have never understood keeping alk so high either. IME- stability is what matters.

[TanksEveryWhere]

10 ml of the BRS two part every other day keeps it there.

[schminksbro]

I would be concerned about your Ph being so low in spite of all the algae you have growing. The algae is producing O2 which should raise your Ph. However it still appears to be depleted which means the system is depleted of O2. The bacteria that bloom from dosing carbon is going to consume O2 and further deplete your Ph. I personally don't think that skimmer is enough to counter that.
I would suggest raising your magnesium up to 1600-1700 using Kent Tech M. I would also run some gfo in a reactor. This will wipe out the bryopsis very quickly and as it dies it will release the PO4 that is bound up in it. The GFO will remove the excess PO4. When the bryopsis is gone allow the mag to drop back down to around 1285 and continue to run GFO.
I would also raise your alk up to around 8dkh and keep it stable. Most hobby test kits are not lab grade. They can be fairly inaccurate. Let's say your kit is accurate to +/- 2dkh. If you test at 6dkh it could actually be 4dkh or 8dkh. If you test at 8dkh you could be between 6dkh and 10dkh which is a better range. In such a small amount of water carbonate can deplete quickly. The abundant PO4 in the system inhibits calcification. Once you remove it you will have more growth of your coraline and corals. This will result in consumption of carbonate. Running your alk around 8dkh will give you a little cushion and keep your Ph from bouncing.
I would also suggest getting the surface churning a bit more. This will allow O2 to mix with your water and raise the Ph.

[TanksEveryWhere]

I have a hanna checker for my alk testing which I hear are really good. I'll aim for 8 shouldn't be that hard. I have started to raise the mag, but want to go slow w/ that 1. There has been progress as far as the algae is concerned...it has changed color and is not growing and has become easy to remove.

Also the PH test was run mid light cycle so it was probably closer to 8.2 at the end of lighting cycle. I am not counting on that though so I'll be testing it 3 time today...when lights come on and mid day as well as right before the lights go off. I want to know what the PH is doing through out the day.

Is GFO a must or would trying something else be okay too?

[schminksbro]

Is GFO a must or would trying something else be okay too?

I should clarify. I am suggesting a little mag treatment and phosphate removal over probiotics. I am not anti probiotics. I used the method for a couple of years with great success. However it wouldn't be my first strategy in dealing with bryopsis. The danger of stripping the tank is substantial and some of your corals will react very poorly to ULNs. I would simply do a mag treatment and some phosphate removing media and roll on. The tank has tons of potential. Looks to be stunning minus the bryopsis.

[TanksEveryWhere]

I didn't start w/ the probiotics to treat the bryopsis and there is more HA than anything else. I tend to feed heavy and it is mostly sps dominated. I have a theory that I am trying to put into action and it it this....in the ocean sps live in a ULN environment, but are also exposed through wave movement to high nutrients. They need both the nutrients to feed and the low nutrient environment to grow and be healthy. So if I can get my tank down to low nutrients, which to my understanding will take months to achieve through this method, than my bad habit of feeding heavy will not be so bad, and it would be closer to what they get in the wild. I could be way of base here as I have only been in the hobby for about three years, and still have much to learn.

I would like to hear more about amino acids, and when those using this method started to add them.

[Sir Patrick]

I have yet to need AA's. I feed very heavy. Heavy enough even for zoas and palys to thrive in the LNS tank.

[MizTanks]

What is LNS?

[TanksEveryWhere]

You have a LONG way to go before you need to even think about aminos..... With the heavy feeding you will probably never need them.

How many fish do you have in there?

Currently 4 the clowns a dragonet and a ruby red cardinal. Very few fish.

[TanksEveryWhere]

Yeah with the algae field you have it looks like you definitely overfeed alot for what you have, if anything add a couple smaller fish to help eat some of the food, they will poop out what your corals need lol

I know I could pick a couple more fish out and be good bio load wise, I just haven't seen any fish I like lately.

Suggestions anyone?

[sugargary]

So how is system going? I just read the whole thread. I am having some of the same problems with a new sps system. Po just came flying out of some rock I scabbed from another system. Running rowaphos. Still in the mists of raising mag. And already showing improvement. Added many snails to help. Just want to know how its going.:stupidme:

[TanksEveryWhere]

So how is system going? I just read the whole thread. I am having some of the same problems with a new sps system. Po just came flying out of some rock I scabbed from another system. Running rowaphos. Still in the mists of raising mag. And already showing improvement. Added many snails to help. Just want to know how its going.:stupidme:

It is way past time for an update. Sorry guys I got sick this x-mass and had some bad tank luck, so I guess we'll start w/ the bad tank luck. After being sick for a couple weeks, and the tank being in poor shape because of it, I did a 20 gal WC and bought a sea hare to help. Up till this point I was doing weekly dose's of MB7, and daily carbon (vinegar), tank was doing very well.

So the sea hare died, which lead to a major cyno outbreak. 2x 20 gal changes later, daily siphoning, and after re starting my dosing routine from square 1 the tank is making even more progress than before. There is still quite a bit of algae, but I think I am beating the cyno.

I haven't started the carbon dosing back up yet, but will in another week.

Changes made to system during this time, 15lbs live cycled rock added, T-5s taken off line (250 halide running),

and a new rbta added.

2200 gph power head added, and power heads put on 3min alternating timer
Now running some where around 75x water volume.

Started live food feedings

Lights just came on, I'll snap some pics in a few.

[TanksEveryWhere]

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad122/kimberlee21/001-23_zpsea7ab900.jpg

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad122/kimberlee21/003-12_zps6d4280d9.jpg

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad122/kimberlee21/007-13_zps7ee7e041.jpg

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad122/kimberlee21/015-6_zps2c9a7971.jpg

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad122/kimberlee21/021-5_zpse047a79b.jpg

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad122/kimberlee21/024-5_zps20cb72d1.jpg

[sugargary]

That's funny that your sea hair died. I bought one a couple months ago. Acclimated, released, and never saw it again. And never nothing. It was pretty huge to, dont know what happened. Just disappeared. All my algae stuck around though. :duh:

[TanksEveryWhere]

That's funny that your sea hair died. I bought one a couple months ago. Acclimated, released, and never saw it again. And never nothing. It was pretty huge to, dont know what happened. Just disappeared. All my algae stuck around though. :duh:

exact same thing except w/ pink cyno following close to the sea hair's disappearance.

[TanksEveryWhere]

So my week has been a series of WC, which follow a vigorous scrubbing of rock and any algae encroaching corals.The results have been great. Also have started daily vinegar dosing. Today I cut up any corals that were almost gone and found frag plugs for the parts that were saveable, also pulled frags and removed any algae than dipped in medicoral. Will post pics later.