10 Gallon Sump

[Fally]

I have a 29 Gallon tank that I would like to build a sump for. The only thing that I can fit under the stand would be a 10 gallon, and that is going to be a tight fit.

Are there any sump experts that would be willing to give me a little help? I have read a few postings and have a basic configuration thought out. I need help with the height of the baffles and spacing. This is what I drew up.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/Falmord/SumpSideView.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/Falmord/SumpTopView.jpg

I want to stick my skimmer in the first compartment and have a small fuge area in the second. Does anyone see any problems with this setup?

Thanks!

[dakar]

The layout looks good. As you've discoverved a 10g doesn't afford much working room. Baffle spacing depends on the amount of flow through the sump/fuge you are planning for, up to 300gph 3/4"spacing should be fine, if more than that go 1" spacing for better trapping. Critical lesson learned the hard way, 500gph through a 10g sump is a little much.

If you are looking for more ideas on the design side look on page 2 of this thread.... I tried to get the max amount of volume for the refuge as possible out of a 10g sump, running just under 19g total volume for a 10g display.

http://www.captivereefing.com/viewtopic.php?t=1833

Things have changed a bit since then, but the layout is still the same. Been a while since I've updated that thread.

[Fally]

Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for!

[Fally]

I guess I'll just leave an inch or two above the baffles for some return in case of a power outage.

Are there any 'rules of sump building' that I should know about? I would hate to get this thing built only to find out that it would be much better if I just did one small thing differently. I am going to add a crash area for my overflow, like your nano. I was already thinking about it, but your posts convinced me that it would be very useful. I don't need my skimmer sucking up a bunch of bubbles.

I updated the diagrams in the first post.

[AquaSquid]

Make sure you put a check valve between the pump and the return. This will prevent siphoning from the tank if power goes out.

[Fally]

I read that you can drill a couple of small holes in the return in the main tank just below the water line, and that would break the siphon in the event of a power outage.

How do the check valves work? Is it a one-way valve?

[jerryc]

[quote="Fally"]I read that you can drill a couple of small holes in the return in the main tank just below the water line, and that would break the siphon in the event of a power outage.

I personally like the hole in the return to break the siphon.

With the high calcium we keep in our tanks its not long till the check valve
will not work as it is supposed to.

[dakar]

That's exactly it, check-valves are just one way valves. Like anything else they are subject to Murphy's Law, they will only fail when you need them. Best to design in your own safety measures to keep the water off the floor.

The one note I will add to the mix here is to consider adding some sort of auto-top off to keep the water level consistent, you'll want to stay very close to the divider between the fuge and pump return chamber to avoid water from dropping in and picking up air bubbles for your pump to pick up.

There really are no 'rules' to sump building, they are only limited to your imagination. The tried and true methods work, but don't let that stop you from trying new things. This whole hobby/obsession is a lesson in progress.

[Fally]

So if the water has a long way to fall it will create some air bubbles to get sucked back into the main tank. Thanks for the tip... What if I put that last divider in at an angle? So that the water ran down the divider instead of waterfalling off it?

I would like to put in a water-level sensor in the main tank to shut of the sump pump if the water level rises too high. This along with holes drilled in the return line should prevent any overflows. Sound right?

[Fally]

I was thinking that the crash chamber might create a lot of bubbles to spill over into the skimmer area. Does anyone know if this is true? Would it effect the operation of the skimmer?

I was thinking about changing the design a little. I could open the skimmer area to the fuge and put the bubble trap at the other end of the sump. Does anyone think this would be a good idea? I guess I don't care that much if there are bubbles in my fuge area...

Here is the updated design:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/Falmord/SumpTopViewRevised.jpg

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! I am pretty new to this.

[davejnz]

I wish i still had pics of my old 10gal sumps.In any case,your design seems to be fine but i would like to offer a few suggestions.First of all,I would go with your original design,skimmers perform best in a small volume of water with a stable water level and with a direct feed from the tanks overflow.By submerging the plumbing into the skimmer chamber down near the skimmers pump,your skimmer will recieve a higher concentration of organics than if it was just sitting in a large open sump where the overflow from the tank was far away from the skimmers intake.By drilling holes just under,at,and ablove the water surface,the air that is in the plumbing will escape.This will cause alot less turbulence/bubbling in the skimmer chamber.Another idea that i recently used is instead of useing an elbow fitting to direct the water into the sump/skimmer chamber,I used a T fitting.I added a a short length of pipe to the top of the T and left it open thus creating a vent.To prevent salt creep,take some poly-fill(used for stuffing pillows) and stuff the open end of the pipe.I would also advise useing the same baffle configuration for your return pump section.In a small sump like a 10gal,microbubbles can be a problem so IMO/IME its best to have 2 sets of baffles dividing the skimmer section from the return pump section.The last thing that i would recommend and something i couldn't live without is having the return pump section drilled to accomadate a $12 float-valve.Then you can have a gravity fed auto-top-off by merely connecting some tubeing from the back of the float-valve to a 5gal bucket or any other reservoir that can hold top-off water.With a small sump/small return pump area,the water level in that section will drop quickly and you'll find that your gonna be topping off at least 2-3 times a day.This will become a PITA and you will wish you would of spent the extra $25 to do the gravity fed/float-valve top off setup.

[Fally]

Awesome advice davejnz! I'm not sure I understand the T theory though. I will definitely use my first design and add a second set of baffles. I think I am convinced on the float switch and a top off tank as well. I'm just not sure where I'll put it... :)

How should I direct the flow of the overflow? Should I make the crash chamber higher then the skimmer area and direct flow that way, or enclose the crash chamber then cut some slots cut out below the water level near the input of the skimmer?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/Falmord/SumpTopViewRevised2.jpg

I just placed an order for two float switches on eBay...

[davejnz]

You don't want the float switch,those are wired to a pump to turn them on and off to provide auto-top-off.The float-valve is mechanical,when the float drops,the valve is opened letting top-off water enter via gravity.I mis-read your post earlier,you have a Remora hang on skimmer.Your first baffle will need to go all the way up to just under the bottom of the 10gals frame.From there,it will overflow to your next set of 3 baffles.These should be approx 6",with the same over,under,over configuration that you illustrated in your first diagram.By haveing the 1 (approx 10")baffle isolating your hang on skimmer,it will perform the way it was designed to.By installing your next set of 3 baffles at 6",you will be able to keep the rest of the water level in your sump at 6" which should give you enough room to accomadate tank draining when pumps/power is shut off.AS for the T idea,you don't need to use that since you have a HOT skimmer.Just use your crash chamber adjacent to your skimmer and try to direct the water from the crash chamber close to the skimmer pump.You probably wont even need to do that as HOT skimmers have there pumps close to the water surface where the organics are concentrated at anyways.I would also advise to not go with alot of flow through your sump.400gph after head loss sounds about right.Any more than that,and your gonna have a very turbulent sump which will impede your skimmers peformance as well as cause a microbubble problem.

[davejnz]

I was thinking that the crash chamber might create a lot of bubbles to spill over into the skimmer area. Does anyone know if this is true? Would it effect the operation of the skimmer?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated! I am pretty new to this.

Indeed it can,air bubbles,turbulence can affect skimmers performance.What i would do is install your 10" baffle all the way across the 10gal tank.Give yourslef about 4"(approx,depends on how much space your skimmers pump takes up)of room so you can easily remove your skimmer/pump for cleaning.You can create a simple crash chamber by squareing off the corner of this 10"x4" chamber.When you square it off,use a 10" piece of glass so the bottom of the square(crash chamber)is 1" up off of the sumps bottom glass( the water will then be directed into the skimmer chamber)This baffle/divider that squares off the crash chamber will be higher(up near the top of the frame) than the 10" divider that seperates the skimmer chamber from the rest of the sump.By having it higher,water will then flow under the crash chamber(you will need another 1" piece of glass to make the rest of the box higher/isolated from the rest of the 10" divider). The water that flows under it into the skimmer should be pretty much free of bubbles as they will be confined into the crash chamber.Just make sure you don't buy a powerful pump.Current needs to be in the tank,not through the sump.

[Fally]

I think I understand. So you think that 6" is as high as I can go with the baffles? I knew that there would be some drain back from the lines, but I was thinking 2-3 inches would do it. I guess 6 inches is good beacuse I think they come in pre-cut sheets of 12"x12".

I will draw up a new diagram and go from there. Thanks for all your help so-far, this project has evolved quite a bit since I started!

[Fally]

Here are a few updated drawings:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/Falmord/SumpTopViewRevised3.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/Falmord/SumpSideViewRevised3.jpg

Thanks again!

[Fally]

My skimmer powerhead is actually 6-8 inches below the water. It is connected to the skimmer by a 4" piece of white hose. It was like this when I bought it second hand.

The pump I would like to use for the sump is a PRO 4 pump that is rated at 260-400 GPH. I figure that with the 5 feet of head it should be just about perfect.

I should be able to cut the 10" divider 11" at the crash chamber end and not use a 1" strip I think. Also, could I just use two baffles after the 10" divider? One 1" off the bottom and the second 6"?

Thanks!

[davejnz]

For a pump,I'd go with something thats rated at about 650gph at 0'head pressure.Byt the time you overcomer vertical head and plumbing restriction loss.For your baffles/dividers,the dimensions are just ballpark figures.As you place your skimmer/return pump in the sump,feel free to change them as needed.I assumed your HOT skimmer had its powerhead close to the surface.Therefore i recommended a higher divider(10") to isolate it from the rest of the sump.I just measured my 10gal tank,its 11" from the bottom of the glass to the top of the frame.I would go with a 9" divider for the skimmer chamber.You can use 2 instead of 3 baffles after that divider.Go with a 7" baffle useing an under,over configuration.Then with the return pump section,use the typical over,under,over setup.For the float-valve,IME they work best when installed in the horizontal position(parallel to the water surface).Have it drilled in the return pump area where the flaot will sit just under the water level of the last baflle.If installed too low,you'll get the waterfall effect coming over the baffle which will cause air bubbles in the return section.If you need any help/suggestions when building this,I'm often in the chatroom between 9-11:30PM eastern time.

[Fally]

I built this over the weekend. Looks really good. I will post some pictures as soon as I take some.

The acrylic was only $2.29 each at Home Depot for a 11"x14" sheet, I only used 5 sheets. Pretty low budget considering I had the 10 Gallon tank sitting around.