Hoping I didn't make more of a problem...

[Randy-L]

hi,
I am hoping I didn't make more of a problem than I am tring to fix.
Over the last few week I have been having a bit of an algae problem and have been detecting somewhat of a smell from the reef tank. Testing has not been very conclusive: Amonia=0, no2=0, no3=no greater than 5.

I have been atributing this smell to the filter being over come from when I clean the glass of algae, but having read more post about substrate in a reef tank I decided to change the substrate from the crushed coral that I started with to Argnoite.

So last night I removed the crushed coral from half the tank( the open half as there was very little on that side of the tank and the substrate was the deepest) and replaced it with 2" of Argonite. The other half of the tank have only about 1" of the crushed coral. I figure I'll replace that later.

So what do you think?

[Dirt4dinner]

You mentioned "filter", what type of filter are you talking about? Most people would agree that if you are doing a reef tank, you should not have any mechanical filtration media (ie, sponges, bio balls, etc). Your live rock, sand, and skimmer should do the filtration, as well as regular water changes. Algea blooms are a stage a tank will go through as it matures, if your tank is still young, then algea is probably normal and will go away on it's own. I do think that sand is a better decision than crushed coral, but to change it out while there is stuff in the tank is going to be tricky at best! But it sounds like you are going about it the correct way. Just keep an eye on your levels, and get rid of that filter sponge. If you need to get solid material out of your tank, use a siphon and do it during a water change. Good luck.

[lReef lKeeper]

good advise Tyler, its is definatly going to be tricky to do the change while the tank is loaded. and as you know Tyler, its gonna make a pretty good sand storm when you drop in the new sand, no matter how you place it in there. my advise would be ...
The same as what Tyler said ... lol

[Randy-L]

Really,No machanical filtration? That is a new concept to me. Is there something published that I can read?

Thanks

[dsfdbutterfly]

There is one way of placing sand in the tank without a major dust storm. I wouldn't do this though unless u absolutely think it is the sand or u no longer like the sand u have chosen. After the removal of the old sand u can use a pvc pipe and place it at the bottom of the tank. U can then begin pouring sand into the end of the pipe sticking out of the water. Fill until u reach the desired depth. This won't stop all dust but as u can possibly imagine it will cut it dramatically. I think it was Tracy that suggested it on another post a while back actually. Anyway, the source sounds like something other than substrate though. If it is a new tank ur substrate shouldn't be putting off an odor unless it is "live" and experiencing a die off. I would check other sources as the problem. Also, I wouldn't mix the two u may end up trapping bacteria that u don't want and the main reason why people don't like to use crushed coral in the first place. Since u are replacing do it all if u can.

[RWalston]

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner , Aquarium Corals by Eric Borneman, Algae: A Problem Solver Guide by Julian Sprung, the list goes on. Also try reading the online magazines that are out there.

[Dirt4dinner]

I am sure someone no here can offer up a nice link for you as to explain more indepth the ups and downs of filter sponges. What you will find though if you run this like an experiment, is that with a sponge filter in your system you will have a tough time getting your nitrates down to zero. Sponge filters are often referred to as "nitrate factories". With proper live rock and a good skimmer there should be NO need for any other filter media. It be as simple as that old saying "keep it simple stupid", or you can go scientific and say something like "all there is nature is rock and sand and natural protein skimmer, there are no bio balls or sponges in the ocean".
But I absolutly believe in research, and learn from experience. So keep an eye on your nitrates and then pull that filter out, you shouldn't see anything negative from removing it, and you nitrates should drop without it.
I think you would be hard pressed to find an experienced reef keeper who uses mechanical media...we will see what some of the others here have to say.

[RWalston]

Also try running some carbon to help reduce the odor comming from the tank

[Randy-L]

Okay, I must have expressed myself badly. I don't have/use a sponge filter, I am using a canister filter. I do have a skimmer and 2 pwoer heads also.

Yes, I do plan on replacing all the crushed coral.
No, I do not plan on mixing the two substrates( other than maybe some small stray pieces. Like I said in the original post, I have already the substrate in half the tank. I scooped out what I could, then used a hose the syphon to clean out that half.
Yes, there was quite a cloud. Quite clear today. I took a baster and used it to blow the live rock and soft corals clean.

When I cleaned the used coral that I removed, so that it would not stink up the place. I had the coral in a 5 gallon pail in the laundry tub and ran water through while mixing the my hands. That produced green frouth and the same type oder that I was smelling from the tank.

Another concern of mine. This is a 55 gallon tank on the upper shelf of an iron stand. Below is a 40 gallon FW tank lit by 130 watt compact light strip. While I would not say that the light gives off a lot of heat, it does get warm. Do you think that this heat will couse a problem with the substrate. I thought of something last night but forgot to test it this morning. I will stick my digital thermonitor probe down into the bottom of the subatrate to measure the temp. I get back to you on the morning temp( when the lite below has been off for 8 or so hours) and in the evening when that lite has been on 12 hours.

[Randy-L]

oh - And thanks for all the help!!!!

[Dirt4dinner]

Same speech applies for the canister filter. If you are running a sump with a protein skimmer than you shouldn't need a canister filter also...unless you just want it for water volume with no media in it, which isn't a bad idea. That media in that thing will spit nitrates out like non-other. Canister filters are better for freshwater tanks, or swim tanks, in my opinion.

[Sweetpea]

I've never replaced substrate before, but I think I remember reading that you should avoid replacing it too quickly because you could upset the bacteria balance and start a new cycle?

[Randy-L]

The protein skimmer hangs on the back of the tank, so no sump. Thou I haven't given much thought to additional water volume, I could rig up something and then be able to move the skimmer out of view.

How about if I remove all the boi-media from the canister and then use the canister to capture particulate matter ( like when I clean the class )? I would then turn off the canister and clean it out so that there is nothing going rotten it for the next use.

[Randy-L]

Sweepea:
That is kind of why I only did half. I figured the I would wait for at leat a couple of weeks before doing the other half.

[dsfdbutterfly]

Tracy, sorry it was about adding sand not replacing. If it wasn't u I'm giving credit in the wrong place. These technique helps with keeping the dust to a minimum. U will see some cycle in ur tank from replacement of substrate. I think u are doing the best method by replacing half at a time. I didn't mean to sound harsh before if I did.

As a side note about this light idea. My friend made the mistake (long story) of putting grow lights over her tank. The whole thing started to grow this lovely green velvet colored algea. None like I've ever seen before. Once she brought over the fish cuz the tank broke and brought me some of the sand and rock I do remember an odor. I just wrote it off because it wasn't too strong. The tank water was a little on the green side. I ran a carbon filter which cleared this up by the next morning. Needless to say there were other issues and I changed the water out by the next couple of days. Now the green on the sand and rock have completely disappeared (no washing). After this long story u may actually be onto something and I don't think it will have anything to do with type of substrate. If this light is heating the substrate up and the algea is growing within it this will happen no matter the type.

As for the filter. U can keep the filter in the system but I would only use it for water movement or to use the carbon chambers. Most in a reef setting do not use these types of filters. Through good husbandry they can be used but why put yourself through the hassel? I have two on my fish only. Once a week I have to clean the other one out. I can't wait til the day that I get switched out to a sump and don't have to deal with it anymore. However, they have done their job and they do remove waste. The problem in a reef setting is they can go to H#** in a hand basket real quick and corals can't take that stress. My motor has quit a few times and bacteria does grow in them. U have to be diligent and u can't forget about them. Much easier the other way. If you've added new sand though I wouldn't suggest upsetting the balance and yanking the thing out. Small steps are always the best. If u decide to remove the filter, take one step out at a time. Leave the carbon for last (this will help with the removal of ur algea and smell). If u decide to leave the filter never wash the filter out in tap water, always use ur tank water from a water change.

I know I have wrote a book but I hope this helps. Good luck,

Angie

[chrisl1]

Let's start with something really simple, how old is the tank? Is the rock cured or is it curing. A reef tank will smell, it's just the nature of it. How often are you doing waterchanges? When you pulled all that CC out you should have had a sponge in the canister filter, to remove all the crap you stirred up, after it settled,then remove the sponge. Now you have added all new sand, is this sand already established from another tank or is straight out of a bag and have no life to it? If it is new sand you will experience a tank cycle again.You may want to do some waterchanges to remove all the detritis and gak that was stirred up from the old substrate. Sounds to me like a combination of things here, poor maintainance, not enough filtration and circulation and possibly a cycling tank. Is your skimmer pulling out lots of smimmate, how often does it need to be dumped. If you are going to add a sump. You may want to take that 40 gallon underneath and make that into a sump/refugium.

[lReef lKeeper]

gotta go with Chriss here. just want to say that i agree 100% with everyone about removing that canister filter.

and i would strongly suggest you seriously think about using that 40 as a sump. with a good pump you will probably circulate your tank 10 times more than it is going now.

[Randy-L]

Wow, this is all good stuff.
Tha tank is about 11 week old.

The live rock is fully cured.

I have been doing about 5 gallon water change a week up untill about 2 weeks ago. Since then I have been going 5 gallon waterchanges 2-3 time a week.

I put in new sand.

With 2 powerheads and the canifter filter giong, I wouldn't think poor circulation would be an issue.

I have not been running the filter 24-7. I have been afraid that it might overflow and spill water all over( the bigist danger there would be getting salt water in my Discus tank below - I'm looking at getting a new tank for them). So I run the skimmer when I am around and I get 1-2 cups the first hour, then very little to nothing( unless I turn it up so high that I get clear colorless tank water).

Dsfdbutterfly: No I didn't find your statments harsh. The people here have been very kind compared to this other message board I go to for Fresh Water companionship.

I'll get back to you on the tempriture of the substrate after I get home.
What I will do with the canister is to put charcole in one of the trays and as this settles down I will graduly remove the bio-media.

Chrisl1: If I can get the fish in the lower tank relocated, I may just do that.

[Sweetpea]

Tracy, sorry it was about adding sand not replacing. If it wasn't u I'm giving credit in the wrong place. ... I didn't mean to sound harsh before if I did. Angie

I did make the pvc suggestion on another post, but I can't take credit for the idea... I heard about several people using this method with great success on a forum back before I found CR. I tucked this little tidbit of information away for the day when I might need to replace some of my sand. ;)

Harsh? You? Never! :)

Randy, I really think Angie is right about not disconnecting the filter right away. Removing the filter now might just be an invitation for trouble. Babysteps... :thumbleft:

(Ok, I'm slow at typing, lol! Gradually removing the filter media is a great approach! Good luck with the transitions, and please do keep us posted! :-D)

[chrisl1]

Ok, you need to let that tank settle, if it's so new let time work for you, it needs to cycle and mature and find its balance, you need to have the filters and pumps and skimmer running all the time, especially the skimmer, the skimmer needs to find its balance or it will pull lots of really watery gook ,not really what you want. You want the nasty green stinky stuff, you will get that when the skimmer is set correctly. I believe yesterday you posted you are putting a mandarin in there? dont do it it will die, that tank is no where near mature enough to keep him alive, even if you are feeding him. And finally stop the waterchanges, the tank will take forever to cycle. give it like a month and keep testing your water, ammonia, nitrates, nitirtes ph etc....

[dsfdbutterfly]

I know this is a lot of information to take in on one day. Do take this as the most important. U do have something going on and until that is settled and figured out don't add anything to the tank like Chris said. It unfortunately will not be able to withstand the problems and perish. If ur keeping discus fish u understand the balance of things.

Let the tank settle as there will be a new cycle even if it is small due to the new sand. Plus if u plan on changing up ur filter things may go off balance even if it is small. Ur rock should handle the changes fine. Even if ur rock was fully cured you probably experienced some die off from transport and the sort.

Lets get u off on the right foot if I/we may. What are ur parameters on the tank? Salinity? PH? That kind of thing. Also, with salt tanks they love motion, power heads or a closed loop system my be something that u want to look into. Dependant on what u want to keep in the tank. How long and what type of light are u running on the tank? Ur skimmer will be ur best friend for ur reef for removing all unwanted particulates so if u can relocate the other tank to run it 24/7 this would be the best. Mine didn't "mature" til I had it running for almost two weeks. Then when I dumped it I got that lovely smell they all talk about :). It may take some time for u to get the skimmer to the right tweak and that is why it is best to run if for longer periods too. If u have a chance check on these things tonight and stop into the chat room. People are always around to answer these questions. Remember though, it is a lot so don't get overwhelmed. We are here to help,

Angie

[Randy-L]

Hi Angie,
I don't get overwhelmed very easy, busy maybe.

So here is an update from last night.
Test:
Amonia = Just over 0 about .15 ( my scale goes 0,.25....)
no2 = 0
no3 = around 5ppm maybe a little less
ph = 8.6

I did that tempreture test, while the water temp is 76.6, I pushed my temp probe down into the bottom of the substrate and got a reading of 79. this was after the light below was on for 8 hours or so.

I maintenced the canister filter by rinseing all the baskets, pads and media in freash salt water. It was pretty bad with sand dust, not too smelly as I had flushed it out a week ago. I put in a big bag of charcoal.

I adjusted the shimmer to something I hope I can trust not to overflow and this morring there was halh cup of green gunk.

There was no bad smell to the tank today. :-)

I think I tromitized my hermit crabs (2), havent seen them since the substrate change and no I didn't bury them.

Question: This tank is a standard 55, I had sort of planed on leaving an open space ( right-front) free of rock, so I would estimate about 1/3 of the total bottom will be open. How many and what kind of sand burrowing creatures should I have? I now have 3 snails, one cone ( he spends about half his time diging ), the other 2 were called clowns and they are underground almost always.

THere was something else but I was interupted and now don't remember.

Randy

[Dirt4dinner]

Good work Randy, sounds like you are getting it under control. I love the idea of a nice biggy sandy area too, I left a lot of space towards the front of my new tank. There really is no limit to how many hermits and snails you can have in there. You would be safe in having at least a dozen snails of different types in the tank. You could always get a sea cucumber, or a sand sifting star.

[dsfdbutterfly]

As far as a clean up crew it is totally up to u. Some find that they need a lot of things to get the job done while others only have a few running around. The best thing I've found for algea clean up is an urchin. Long spine is the best but sometimes hard to come by. I have a tuxido in mine. I love him and he keeps the place clean. Others like hermits in their reef. I don't, they usually start to go after some snails in time and I find they don't do as good of job anyway. Again this is just personnal preference. The amount is totally up to u. I would however find a few that really interest u. Then when u are looking in on ur tank and u spot him/her u find urself smiling.

Start with ur clean up crew though. This will keep the tank maintained and healthy so when u add corals and fish things don't go out of whack. The higher the lighting the more the numbers need to be. Research the types of snails cuz each one does different things. Some are sand dwellers others graze ur rock and glass more.

The open space in the sand sounds good to me. I like to see the sand and have an open feel to my aquascape. Again this is all personnal preference. Doesn't mean u will need more to clean the sand. However, u may want to consider getting a sand sifting gobie down the road once everything is settled to help keep things cleaned up and healthy.

Ur ammonia spike could mean a couple of things, the tank is recycling due to the addition of the new sand would be my best guess though. This should take a couple of days if so. The next to spike will be ur nitrite and then things will settle off. Things fall into the Nitrate side after that but those usually aren't deadly to fish/hitchickers unless they are really off the charts. Keep an eye on it. If it goes higher than .25 than do a 10% water change just to be on the safe side for anything in the tank. If it stays under that try not to do a water change and let the tank cycle. After at least a week of things being at 0 all around (U may never have nitrates at 0 so don't stress this one, try to keep it under 20 though for corals) add ur clean up crew.

After ur clean up crew is established and doing well (I waited two weeks u can begin to add things to ur tank). Make sure to pick up other test kits for things like calcium and alk if not already done so. My additions came pretty quick (I'm a little impatient). Slow and steady is probably the best method. Ask questions.

Angie

[Randy-L]

So with charchoal in the filter, it will be removing more than the smell. It will be removing minerals and such. So how long should I leave the charcoal in?

[dsfdbutterfly]

I don't think that there is a set amount of time on how long to leave the carbon in. For all that is going on for u I would (if it were me I mean) leave the carbon until everything was settled. Once all levels were down to 0, u have ur clean up crew in there and cleaning for u and there don't appear to be any swings anymore then I would remove it. The thing u have to remember about carbon is that it is likely to remove nutrients from the water column. I would keep an eye on my calcium and alk due to this. It's likely to have some effect. Ur likely to not have to leave it in there no longer than a few weeks though. Someone else may have another opinion though.

Angie

[stevebla]

"in my opnion all marine systems should have at least some extra machanical filtration in addition to the essential biological and protien skimming systems. ...It is still appropriate to screen gross particulates out of your system quickly." Robert M. Fenner The Conscientious Marine Aquarist pg 75,77
Canisters work well, you need to clean them offten.

[PurpleAardvark]

Hey you found an athor I like. Robert Fenner is one of the few who over the years has provided good info and not made an *** of him self. The one thing I am going to dissagree with people here is the sponge. Sponges are great I run 4 in my sump/fuge. Why if you rinse them in the water you take from the tank after a water change it gets the junk out and still keeps the bio. You are right about the canister filters keep them clean!!!! Other wise they become a big nitrate trap do to there design.

[stevebla]

Canisters clear the water very quickly, I still run ceramic bio-media in mine if/when i see nitrates in my system, I may try live rock rubble in it's place, changing it in stages to maintain stability. canister filters are a good tool IMO.I am new to marine aquariums in the moderen era! My last one had a UGF, with airstones! I kept it for years.

[davejnz]

Steve/PA,take the wheel on this one.I think everyone else is tired of driving.