skimmerless system requirements?

[segraves1]

I am in final stages of the planning of a 125gal setup (tank and sump total volume) and would LIKE to stay skimmerless. For the past 9 months I have been running a 10gal and then a 20gal saltwater setup without any filtration (just monthly 20% water changes). When I do this new tank, I would LIKE to just let filter feeders take care of nutriant exsport but the question is "HOW MUCH am I going to need?"

I have a "full size" (actually he is HUGE comparitive to most) feather duster, another small one, and today I got a clump of (probubly 30+) fan worms....I also have macros and zenia....

I was told "well....if you get some clams, some other filter feeders, etc....you could do it" but what/how many?

what about "food grade" clams (the maximas are $$$).....could I go to a live seafood store (have no idea where there is one in Phoenix but...thats another quest) and get some clams to toss in the refuge (I'm using almost 100% of the sump as a fuge)?

ideas?

[davejnz]

I think you got the right idea with infauna being able to uptake the majority of the nutrients in the tank.The thing is,"filter feeders" aren't really what you should be concentrating on.Almost all corals can uptake nutrients from the water colum.Soft Corals in particular use this "absorption" feeding method.I've researched these skimmerless tanks and they are intriguing.The basic approach is patience,allowing all of the sandbed/tank infauna to become popultated for 4-6months before adding any fish.In a tank like this,I'd stay away from known pod pretators.Since the infauna/flora in the tank is gonna be your source of nutrient uptake,its important not to add any fish that will just wipe out there population.

[dsfdbutterfly]

I've ran skimmerless on my fish only for many years. This has been accomplished by heavy filtration of other types and lots of water changes. For a reef tank however I think that Dave has u on the right path. I think that the only way to accomplish it without a crash or poor water quality is to keep fish at bay for awhile and allow filtration by all things in the water column. I don't think u could ever allow urself the addition of anything that would prey on pods either once u do add fish (like a mandarin). Corals are amazing in their ability to improve their water and to get nutrients out of it. Keep us posted on ur results I think more than one of us would be interested.

Angie

[segraves1]

so what kinds of corals should I be looking at then?

I have been told Zenia (which I have a small "clump" of) is good, but what are some other good ones?

I'm thinking I should PROBUBLY stay away from the hards (SPCs) if I'm trying to go this route (right?) since I understand that they like the water to be as clean as possible. This leads me to think softs would be the way to go.

Someone I talked to at the LFS told me Gorgonians are quite good at uptake also (and that he personally has had quite a bit of luck keeping them alive).

[PurpleAardvark]

If you want to do an sps in the tank I would do what I call the flush method. I only run my skimmer about 7-10 days a month but I also use a pressure base skimmer that is capable of removing the posphates, organics, ect... quickly. Usally the beckett or downdraft design is the best for do this. As far as SPS liking clean water it really depends on were they are from and what else you have in the tank. Deeper water acro's like Bali's, or salomin islands like to have a dirtyness there as long as it is not to much. If you have some large clams 6"-10" they also like a little dirt. I find that everything does better when my skimmer is turned off for some reason, but i also fear a build up that I can't control so that is why I run it.
Any ways I would at least consider running some type of carbon such as Pura to at least remove some of the coral toxins that are produced naturaly.
As far as natural cleaners, some sponges, some Gorgonians, some LPS, and clams, clams, and more clams.

[segraves1]

will these clams work

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11_03/product_info.php?products_id=574&parent_category=4&category_search=63&root_parent_id=4


or do I need the big, expensive, clams (the maximas).....

[Reptoreef]

There are several methods that may work... a greater form of natural filtration(superior refugium space, size, etc... 3x's and above actual show tank). A very limited stock, feeding habits, lighting, and flow through the display will also be of great importance. IMO, before purchasing livestock or anything to do a certain task in the system, do some extensive research and try to see others reviews before going on.

[davejnz]

Good points J/PAardvark,but I must disagree on clams being a key factor in this type of system.
They are nearly autotrophic,with phytoplankton being used as there source of heteretrophy.You want fauna/flora that are known to be dissolved organic uptakers.I dont think Clams fall into this category.Just about any coral is capable of "absorption" feeding,includeing SPS(bad term).Acropora sp. from the Caribbean can be found in lagoons so i don't feel that a skimmer is needed if you want to grow SPStype corals that fit the biotope of this tank.I recall seeing one of Eric B's old 40 breeders that was skimmerless and it had various types of "SPS" corals in it.I do think an agressive carbon filtration scheme would work well for this type of tank as PA suggests.

[segraves1]

just to be clear, the carbon would be for the toxons released by the corals correct?

which work better for uptake, "SPCs", "LPCs", or soft corals?

[davejnz]

Well,it does do that too but carbon is capable of absorbing dissolved oraganics too.

[segraves1]

so then wouldn't running carbon then just be like swapping one filter out for another? I'm "trying" to go "all natural" (if there is such a thing)......

[PurpleAardvark]

I agree with on the clams as not being key, however big clams have been known to affect water quality. I would say sponges would be more key as they are opften refurred to as natures skimmer for there ability to pull out waste.
By sps I ment montipora, acropora, ect... sorry I did not calarify that. I find that alot of sps other acro's are adaptive to different water quilty, one that comes to mind is the blue ridge coral which if you had alot of light would be a nice addition to this sceme.
I guess since no one else said this I would take everything in small steps. Alot of the stuff we are talking about here sponges, clams, sps, ect... are something you would not want to put in a tank right away. That is also why I recommended the carbon, pura complete also has a posphate remover in which is why I chose to recommend that one. That is the on draw back I see usless you have a ref. 3x the size of the main tank, whould be the posphates. But like any system there always is a couple of draw backs. I hope that the progress is posted on this system it is one area that I have read about but never seen some one do. It is very interesting.

[RWalston]

Want to skimmerless have you thought about the mud system?

[PurpleAardvark]

Mud the magical snake oil. Good system but I don't know if that would fall under the natural catogory, but it is more natural than carbon. I would still suggest a skimmer with a mud system. By the way yes snake oil is the magical ingr. to the mud. Alot of people have good luck with the systems as long as they change the mud like directed. Good suggestion.

[segraves1]

well thanks everyone........after talking to people and reading a lot, I think I'm going to ditch the "skimmerless" idea, put a good sized skimmer on, and not worry about if I'm going to crash my system 6 months down the road...

thanks again though......