WC's and a Sump?

[MizTanks]

What if anything will I have to do different when it comes to water changes? Usually I just take 5-6g's out of my DT. Will this method have to change?

[Tom@HaslettMI]

You'll definitely need to turn off your ATO (the sensor will be down in the return pump section of the sump now). Depending on how much water you're removing you may also need to shut off the return pump.

Tom

[MizTanks]

What if I remove from the sump while at the same time adding new to the DT?

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Dunno. But it sounds like a lot more coordination (holding hoses, turning on/off pumps, ect.) than I'm capable of! Plus that method would eliminate your ability to siphon the sand bed.

Tom

[MizTanks]

Do you siphon your sand bed?

[binford4000]

What if anything will I have to do different when it comes to water changes? Usually I just take 5-6g's out of my DT. Will this method have to change?

Are you installing an overflow?? I am guessing yes. All you should need to do is turn the pumps off. The tank will gravity drain tell water level in DT will no longer drain. The fuge level will raise so the ATO will think you have to much water so it shouldn't run. After it drains just remove the water from the DT And add the new water to the DT also. Turn pump back on and there you go, then making sure HOB skimmer has it's siphon so your good to go. I siphon the sand bed the same way. Easy peazy!!

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Do you siphon your sand bed?
Sometimes. Other times I siphon valonia or detritus off of the rocks.



Are you installing an overflow?? I am guessing yes. All you should need to do is turn the pumps off. The tank will gravity drain tell water level in DT will no longer drain. The fuge level will raise so the ATO will think you have to much water so it shouldn't run. After it drains just remove the water from the DT And add the new water to the DT also. Turn pump back on and there you go, then making sure HOB skimmer has it's siphon so your good to go. I siphon the sand bed the same way. Easy peazy!!
That will totally work. I prefer to add the new water to the sump and allow it to mingle with the existing tank water. Plus I don't have to lift bucket(s) to pour into the display... the return pump does the work for me!

Tom

[MizTanks]

I'm allergic to lifting. I use a pump to add water :)

So my ATO sensor will now go into the sump area? I see a lot of sumps with low water levels, why is that? Skimmers?

[Tom@HaslettMI]

I'm allergic to lifting. I use a pump to add water :)

So my ATO sensor will no go into the sump area? I see a lit of sumps with low water levels, why is that?

The ATO sensor needs to go where the water level will change due to evaporation. If the overflow and sump are set up properly then the return pump section of the sump is where it should go. Sumps need to have enough empty space to accommodate the water that will drain from the DT when the return pump is shut off.

Tom

[binford4000]

The ATO sensor needs to go where the water level will change due to evaporation. If the overflow and sump are set up properly then the return pump section of the sump is where it should go. Sumps need to have enough empty space to accommodate the water that will drain from the DT when the return pump is shut off.

Tom

That is correct. The return pump compartment will show evaporation first. If the pump and drain are matched properly that is. The DT will not show it until the pump is blowing bubbles. This is why properly set up ATO's have the floats and or sensors in that compartment. Making sense??

[MizTanks]

Sort of-lol. How does the water level in the DT remain constant? How will I know at what level to place the float switch? Do I go by the level I want maintained in the DT?
Oh man there's more to this then I thought.
Now I'm worried about the level dropping in the DT to the point of it not draining.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Water level in the display is determined by the height of the overflow weir (usually a toothy looking thing that keeps the fish from taking a ride to the sump). The only time this does not work is if you have a return pump pushing more water than the overflow can handle. Then you have a wet floor.

One thing that will help us help you is knowing if the tank is drilled or if you'll be using a hang on overflow. Then we can give you more specific answers.

Tom

[jimsflies]

Be sure to check your return pump and overflow sizing with the calculators in the Reef Tools menu. As Tom said, a mismatched pump to overflow equals water on the floor.

You want to design the return and overflow so that when the power is out, the water level doesn't go down very much in the display. (Some is normal.) This volume needs to be accounted for when designing your sump so there is enough volume to handle it.

[MizTanks]

Does this help? Drilled tank.

CPR Over Flow box 5.5"
Taam Rio+ 1400 return pump 420gph with 3-4' head loss I'm looking at about 290-243gph

9195

[AZDesertRat]

What size is the oveflow bulkhead and standpipe, this will mostly determine the oveflow rate. You will want to make sure the return pump does not exceed this overflow rate or install a ball valve on the discharge side of the pump to thottle or adjust flows to match the overflow or both. My overflow is larger than my pump but I still install a valve on the return to adjust flows until it is at its optimal/quiet point.

When I do water changes I shut my return pump off and let it drain back until the siphon breaks then either siphon out of the display or if the sump is dirty use either a MJ1200 powerhead with a hose attached to the discharge side to spot clean into a bucket or trashcan or use a shop vac if it needs major cleaning. I usually clean the sump once a quarter or so depending on how it looks.

Have you read Melev's write up on DIY sumps, it is by far the easiest one to understand:
404 Error - Page Not Found (http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.htm)

[MizTanks]

Here's the plumbing kit he's using with 1/2" bulkheads. I questioned that it's a hanging kit but he said he's only using a few parts and charging me half.
Lifegard Aquatics CustomFlow Plumbing Kit (http://www.marinedepot.com/Lifegard_Aquatics_CustomFlow_Plumbing_Kit_Returns_ Plumbing_Parts-Lifegard_Aquatics-RB7131-FIFTRP-vi.html)

[Tom@HaslettMI]

.5 inch bulkheads, is that right? It seems way too small. That overflow kit also seems way too complex and unnecessary. Why not just use standard bulk heads and PVC plumbing? I must be missing something...

Tom

[jimsflies]

Yeah... $5 in plumbing and you got the same thing. You aren't having the return line drilled?

[MizTanks]

Ok guys now your scaring me. Brian seems to know what he's doing and I of course do not know anything about plumbing a tank. I'll just have to hope he does know....

[AZDesertRat]

If he is drilling the tank why is he using all that unnecessary plumbing. Keep it simple stupid, KISS, is the best method. No reason for anything other than a hole, bulkhead and small 90 degree standpipe for the overflow and hole, bulkhead and a few inches of Loc Line and a nozzle for a return. I wouldn't want all that eyesore in my tank to look at when all you need to see is the oveflow box and a couple inches of locline at the water surface.

Honestly you should be concerned. I question his skills or at least we need more info on what exactly he intends to use out of that plumbing kit and how it will look when completed. I don't think you will be happy with it when comparing it to a simple overflow/return setup with minimal plumbing to clean, go wrong or look at.

[jimsflies]

I couldn't agree more with @AZDesertRat (http://www.captivereefs.com/forum/member.php?u=3268).

I'm sure you have followed other's build threads. How many of them do you see with that plumbing contraption? I think if I were you, I would be right there and very very involved with the work that you are paying for. Besides not wanting to see you waste your money, I want to see you happy with your upgrade when its all over. I would not just turn the keys over to anyone to build a tank for me...sure I would pay someone to drill holes and build sumps, but I would have a very very clear idea of what I wanted and make sure that is conveyed to the person I hired to do it. Use photos of other similar setups to show him or sketch out what you want.

You are doing the right thing by asking here...I just hope you come out of this with a system that you like and don't get taken to the cleaners getting it.

[MizTanks]

Ugh!!! Please help!! This guy now tells me he's using a HOB return!! WTH? The drain is 1" bulk head. WTH is he doing? I thought both the drain & return were drilled and of the same size? Am I wrong? I explained that the tank will only drain to the bottom of the weirs, 1-2gallons at the most, is this right?

[jimsflies]

You need to tell him to STOP. He needs to know what YOU want.

[jimsflies]

Regarding your other questions. The drain can be larger...arguably it should be larger. It flows under gravity, the return flow with pressure flow from the pump. A larger bulkhead will help with getting more flow out of the tank.

The picture of what you showed there is a HOB return. So yeah...looks like that is his plan. I wouldn't want that mess hanging off the back of my tank. Tell him to drill and plumb it.

How large is your tank going to be again?

[MizTanks]

It's only a 40b. I really don't know enough to be telling him exactly what to do. I did tell him that I don't want a HOB return. I don't know the proper size holes to tell him to drill. I shouldn't be having to tell him anything!! He told me he does this for a living!!
AZDesertRat That's exactly what I want done. Could you please list exactly what I'll need? He's already telling me $180 for the glass baffles, pump, bulk heads, clear tubing, silicone & over flow box. Seems a bit much no?

[jimsflies]

Does he have other tanks that he has done to show you what his plan is?

I'm sure we can design this for you (and him). What equipment has already been purchased (e.g., pumps)? What work has he already completed (e.g., drilled holes, built sump, etc.). I think we should know the potential restrictions of the design before we do too much work on it.

How did you get hooked up with this guy?

[MizTanks]

Does he have other tanks that he has done to show you what his plan is?

I'm sure we can design this for you (and him). What equipment has already been purchased (e.g., pumps)? What work has he already completed (e.g., drilled holes, built sump, etc.). I think we should know the potential restrictions of the design before we do too much work on it.

How did you get hooked up with this guy?

He works at The Pet Stop. Where I met him at. Talking about my upgrade and he gives me his business card, says he does this for a living.

[MizTanks]

Ok so I've spoken with Brian and told him to just drill the tank and I'll do the rest. He said fine as he's not familiar with the type of plumbing I'm asking him to do and wouldn't feel comfortable doing it.

So here's what I'm asking from you all. Using BRS as my supplier what all will I need to order? What size Schedule Pipe & fittings? Will I need Primer Weld? What size Braided Vinyl Tubing & Clamps? What fittings will I need to attach Tubing & Piping to the Bulk Heads? Will I need any type of safety valve?

Thank you all and here's hoping I don't screw this up! :)

[jimsflies]

Make sure he drills it in the right spots. :)

You'll do fine...and have a better sense of what its all about having done the work yourself. Which will come in handy down the road when it springs a leak. (jk)

You can use Home Depot (or where ever) as your plumbing supplier. Nothing special about the plumbing.

[AZDesertRat]

I would drill for a 1" thread by thread bulkhead in one back corner for the return. Tank manufacturers recommend staying at least the width of a bulkhead away from the outside edge so the 1.75" holes would be at least 1.75" down from the top edge and 1.75" over from the outside edge to the outside edge of the hole so you don't weaken the glass. So something like 2.75" down and over would be the center of the drill bit. You can always use a 1"x3/4" or 1/2" reducer bushing to reduce the return or Loc Line size so I would stay with the 1" bulkhead. Its tough to make it larger if you decide to change things in the future.

For the overflow box it all depends on where you place it but make sure the hole is low enough in the box so you can build some sort of standpipe inside the box or you will have slurping, gurgleing and burping going on in the 90 degree elbow in the box and the sump. The standpipe allows the proper water/air mixture for a smooth laminar, quiet flow without the flushing effect. I would make this a 1" bulkhead too and leave it 1" diameter to the sump since this is gravity flow. BRS and others like Glass Holes sell a short thread 1" bulkhead for HOB overflow boxes so you have room inside, otherwise you need to cut it down with a hacksaw which is not that easy.

All you should need are the two bulkheads from him or BRS. The PVC fittings and pipe or heavy wall or braided reinforced clear vinyl
tubing, barbed nipples, nylon hose clamps and ball valve can all be had at Lowes, Home Depot or any full line hardware store like Ace or True Value. No check valves, they are a false sense of security and will cause you problems in time.

Read my Bulkhead Installation Tips sticky posts here for more information on bulkheads and plumbing in general:
Installing Bulkhead Tips (http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/equipment-lighting-hardware-aquarium-filtration/34973-installing-bulkhead-tips.html)
Bulkhead Installation Tips - 3reef Reef Aquarium Forum (http://www.3reef.com/forums/new-hobby/bulkhead-installation-tips-111422.html)

I honestly don't remember if it is on Captive Reefs or not but you are certainly welcome to post it if you would like. Many have found it useful.

[jimsflies]

AZDesertRat That would be awesome if you can post it here too. :)

[AZDesertRat]

I will clean up a copy and post it soon.

[MizTanks]

Well so much for that. Brian's had my tank since Sunday and hasn't drilled a hole. So I told him not to and I'll just pick up the tank. I'll pay him parts & labor for the sump and be done with it. I might be able to get the tank drilled in April at the swap. Otherwise I've no idea...
WTH-now he tell's me the sump isn't done either! He just told me the other day that all the baffles were in place. He said he was waiting for a deposit & directions! Ugh! Boschaquatics.com my a$$! Hopefully I can get my tanks back. I've already paid for the 20L and he has my 40. My stomachs sick :(

[jimsflies]

Settle down... This is good news. Now you can tell him exactly where to drill and how big. Remember NOTHING GOOD HAPPENS FAST IN A REEF TANK. I would say he's still your best bet to get the work done. You just need to be involved and make sure you get what you want. I definitely wouldn't burn your bridge with this guy.

The fact he was waiting on you is good. :)

[MizTanks]

He was waiting for me to give him money up front. Says he's been burned to many times. Why he didn't say this from day one is beyond me. He's ordered nothing. Jim a week ago he said the sump was done! But today tells me it's not.

Almost 2 weeks ago he sends me an itemized bill for $285, with all this stuff on it. Coralline covered LR, 20lbs of Live sand, pump, that plumbing kit, OF box, bulk heads, 2x Koralia, heater. I was like WTH? I just wanted a sump built and my tank drilled!

I return his email with what I don't want nor need. I hear nothing back from him.

This past Monday I see him at the LFS and ask how the tanks are coming along. He tells me the baffles are in place and he's leak testing the 40.

Today I IM him and ask how things are going? This is when things get crazy! He doesn't know how to drill the tank the way I want it drilled. This coming from a man who told me he makes a living out of doing this. Now he only know's one way. Now he doesn't want to do 2 holes. Now he tells me he's already in for $180 in parts. Then 5 minutes later I get an email from him with another itemized invoice for $102.

I'm sorry but this is just to much for me. I'll find another way....or not.

[jimsflies]

So you never had a discussion with him before you dropped off your tank about what you needed/wanted and how much is was going to cost? I think the biggest thing you need is your tank drilled at this point...you can do everything else yourself. You can buy a sump that is already made.

Its too bad you couldn't find a used setup that's good to go on the cheap.

You can thank us now for convincing you not to give your corals to this guy. :) I think your CR membership just paid for itself. ;)

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Get your stuff back from him ASAP. Offer to buy the glass baffles for the sump and the 1 inch bulkheads (if he's already purchased any of these). Be sure to get an idea of the retail cost of the items ahead of time (call a local glass shop and look on BRS). If his numbers are off then ask for itemized receipts from him for those items. If he still wants too much above retail just get your two tanks back and be done with him.

I think at this point you should do it all yourself. Including drilling the tank. Search for some youtube videos on how to drill a tank. I don't think it's that hard (coming from someone who has never drilled a tank himself!).

Tom

[MizTanks]

So very happy I kept my corals :) Anyways I told him I was sorry he got taken in the past by others. Could I please come by tomorrow and pick up my tanks? He said sure. Then I asked if he did have the baffles I'd be more then happy to pay him for them...to that he never did answer me.

On a good note 2FarNorth is going to try and make it here this weekend to drill my tank! What a guy!!! I might just spend the money and buy this sump 19 Gal Refugium Sump Wet Dry Aquarium Filter 24x12x15 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/19-Gal-Refugium-Sump-Wet-Dry-Aquarium-Filter-24x12x15/121290200390?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222003%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D21143%26meid%3D5605304312897848166%26pid%3D 100005%26prg%3D9373%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D1712 67377570&rt=nc)

[jimsflies]

Now you're on the right track! :)

[AZDesertRat]

A sump isn't really anything complicated. 10+ years ago now I built mine out of a standard AGA 30 gallon long aquarium and some acrylic sheets from HD or Lowes for the baffles. It has never failed me and the baffles have never moved nor needed any repairs of additional silicone since new. I think I picked the tank up from the LFS or maybe even Petco on the $1 a gallon sale so it was very inexpensive. I may have $50 including taxes in it between the tank, acrylic and a couple tubes of silicone caulking and I built it in one day. If you or any friends are at all handy with DIY this may be an option.

[tcp316]

Well so much for that. Brian's had my tank since Sunday and hasn't drilled a hole. So I told him not to and I'll just pick up the tank. I'll pay him parts & labor for the sump and be done with it. I might be able to get the tank drilled in April at the swap. Otherwise I've no idea...
WTH-now he tell's me the sump isn't done either! He just told me the other day that all the baffles were in place. He said he was waiting for a deposit & directions! Ugh! Boschaquatics.com my a$$! Hopefully I can get my tanks back. I've already paid for the 20L and he has my 40. My stomachs sick :(

You can do this yourself Jaime. I drilled my own tanks and several others for friends. It's a bit nerve wracking the first time because you aren't sure what to expect. I bought an overflow kit from glass_holes.com. I bought the correct hole saws from them and bulkhead. The videos on YouTube are very clear. A good drill is important. For the sump i had the glass cut at a local glass shop and got the silicone at home depot. My silicone job isn't pretty but effective.
You can do it! !! You will feel an accomplishment as well.
You go girl

[MizTanks]

You know tcp316 your right! I can and I am going to drill my tank myself!!
Tomorrow I'm heading to Lowes for a drill & hole kit!
Was up til 4am researching & talking with binford4000 (what a guy) and I've now got peace of mind :)
Wish me luck!! :)

[jimsflies]

Not sure if the big box stores are going to have a hole kit for a 1-inch glass hole.

Glass Drill Bits - Bulk Reef Supply (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/plumbing/glass-drill-bits.html)

You're braver than me...I'd rather have the pros drill the tank. Then I can at least blame them if it breaks (not that any of them would buy you a new tank anyways).

[binford4000]

You know tcp316 your right! I can and I am going to drill my tank myself!!
Tomorrow I'm heading to Lowes for a drill & hole kit!
Was up til 4am researching & talking with binford4000 (what a guy) and I've now got peace of mind :)
Wish me luck!! :)

Woot! Woot! You go girl! You will do fine. But you will probably have to order the diamond bit on line tho

[MizTanks]

First question! What size bit? (Lmao to a great start) :) I need details people! So I can order everything at once. Schedule piping, return tubing & clamp, bulk heads, Loc Line, over flow box. Oh and now I'm gonna need a return pump too. Anything I'm going to need :)

[tcp316]

You won't find the diamond bit at Lowe's. They carry wood and masonry bits not bits for glass. Glass holes are very helpful and actually have a template they sell along with the bit and bulkhead. So if you go 1 1/2" they can send you what you need. Also gave locline and are very fast shippers

[tcp316]

The main thing is let the drill do the work and don't push down on the glass. Put duct tape on the inside of the tank where you are going to drill so the glass doesn't fall and drop and crack the tank

[MizTanks]

I was thinking BRS as they also have all my plumbing needs. I like them, am familiar with them :)

[MizTanks]

I would drill for a 1" thread by thread bulkhead in one back corner for the return. Tank manufacturers recommend staying at least the width of a bulkhead away from the outside edge so the 1.75" holes would be at least 1.75" down from the top edge and 1.75" over from the outside edge to the outside edge of the hole so you don't weaken the glass. So something like 2.75" down and over would be the center of the drill bit. You can always use a 1"x3/4" or 1/2" reducer bushing to reduce the return or Loc Line size so I would stay with the 1" bulkhead. Its tough to make it larger if you decide to change things in the future.

For the overflow box it all depends on where you place it but make sure the hole is low enough in the box so you can build some sort of standpipe inside the box or you will have slurping, gurgleing and burping going on in the 90 degree elbow in the box and the sump. The standpipe allows the proper water/air mixture for a smooth laminar, quiet flow without the flushing effect. I would make this a 1" bulkhead too and leave it 1" diameter to the sump since this is gravity flow. BRS and others like Glass Holes sell a short thread 1" bulkhead for HOB overflow boxes so you have room inside, otherwise you need to cut it down with a hacksaw which is not that easy.

All you should need are the two bulkheads from him or BRS. The PVC fittings and pipe or heavy wall or braided reinforced clear vinyl
tubing, barbed nipples, nylon hose clamps and ball valve can all be had at Lowes, Home Depot or any full line hardware store like Ace or True Value. No check valves, they are a false sense of security and will cause you problems in time.

Read my Bulkhead Installation Tips sticky posts here for more information on bulkheads and plumbing in general:
Installing Bulkhead Tips (http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/equipment-lighting-hardware-aquarium-filtration/34973-installing-bulkhead-tips.html)
Bulkhead Installation Tips - 3reef Reef Aquarium Forum (http://www.3reef.com/forums/new-hobby/bulkhead-installation-tips-111422.html)

I honestly don't remember if it is on Captive Reefs or not but you are certainly welcome to post it if you would like. Many have found it useful.

How can I make a Durso Stand Pipe for a tank drilled on the back and using an overflow box that's only 5x3x5??

[Tom@HaslettMI]

How can I make a Durso Stand Pipe for a tank drilled on the back and using an overflow box that's only 5x3x5??

The initial 90 degree is inside the overflow and the rest is on the other side of the bulkhead. That is what I did... and it works pretty well.

Tom

[MizTanks]

The initial 90 degree is inside the overflow and the rest is on the other side of the bulkhead. That is what I did... and it works pretty well.

Tom

Is it possible for me to see a pic Tom? I can't get a vision-lol

[jimsflies]

This is my old tank:

http://www.jimsflies.com/reeftank/plumbing_progress.jpg

http://www.jimsflies.com/reeftank/50plumbing_back.jpg

(ignore the nasty hose water...this was a leak test in the garage)
http://www.jimsflies.com/reeftank/50plumbing_overflow.jpg

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Is it possible for me to see a pic Tom? I can't get a vision-lol

I'll try to take some pics tonight and post them up.

Tom

[AZDesertRat]

Here are the directions with photos. In your case the PVC pipe would be shorter but you should be able to fit it in your overflow box.
R. Durso's 180g - Ken Stockman Standpipe (http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/standpipe/standpipe-ken_stockman.htm)

If not the style Jim and Tom are talking about does basically the same thing.

[MizTanks]

Dang Jim!!! Could that be any more clean & perfect?
I'm seeing what Tom meant by half the Durso being on the outside. So the a 90 degree elbow inside the overflow box turned down, right?

[jimsflies]

Dang Jim!!! Could that be any more clean & perfect?
I'm seeing what Tom meant by half the Durso being on the outside. So the a 90 degree elbow inside the overflow box turned down, right?

Yes, just an elbow inside the bulk head on the inside of the tank, then the durso outside the tank. The cap on the top is drilled and not permanently attached so that you can adjust it. I found that I occasionally would need to occasionally adjust the cap to allow more or less air in the standpipe depending on how dirty or clean my pump and plumbing was. The eheim 1262 was almost too big for that overflow/drain pipe. In retrospect, a smaller pump would have been more suitable and required less adjustment to the standpipe.

I also wouldn't do a closed loop again. A couple Vortech MP-10s would have been awesome on that tank.

[MizTanks]

Totally understand now! I'll be ordering all my plumbing supplies tonight. Going with the black schedule piping from BRS. :) I'll be starting a new build thread soon.

[jimsflies]

I probably had a dozen trips to the plumbing department of a couple home improvement stores in the process of assembling that tank.

Did you get your tank back?

[MizTanks]

Yup Jim I did! Or I should say my son did-lol. Anyways spent several hrs last night with a fellow reefer, who it just so happens built his own sump & plumbed his own tank. He also gave me a Rio 8HF Hyper Flow 550gph return pump. Less then a year old. We filled my BRS shopping cart and I'll be placing the order on Thursday. They were out of the black PVC so I,gotta wait. Tomorrow I'll go an order the glass baffles for the sump. I do believe I'm on my way!!
The sump is going to be 3 chambers. Center being the biggest for fuge. 4" Draw string filter sock (save a little $$ choice) I'll also be using your idea for a Durso stand pipe :)
Overflow box RSS07 - 5 1/4" L x 3 5/8" W x 5 1/4"H (Up to 60 gallon tank)

Oh and my LumenTek Pro 180 from Reef Radiance shipped today! Doing the HAPPY DANCE!!!

[MizTanks]

Glass baffles ordered!! Lol