big skimmer yet lots of algae

[segraves1]

Ok, so here is the deal:

- 100gal show with ~40gal sump/fuge
- ASM G4 with a Sedra 9000 running recirculation and fed by a pair of MaxiJet 1200s
- 2 400w 6500Ks MH and 4 Blue 7100K PCs
- 1.026SG
- 8.10 PH
- 82degrees
- unreadable Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite

this setup has been running since about mid June


The PROBLEM is that dispite the skimmer running like crazy and pulling nasty black/brown stuff out at an incredible rate (I have to empty the cup every 2-3 days), I STILL have brown hair algae and diatoms all over the tank (I clean the glass and within 3-4 days it is almost unviewable again). It is literally getting to the point that it is overgrowing the zooanthids and I'm convinced the only reason the bubble and hammer coral are ok is that they can produce enough "slime" to "wash" themselves off.

I don't feed the fish more than once a day (usually every other day) and feed only what they will eat.

Ideas? I'm at a total loss.....

I have a yellow eye tang and a lawnmower bleeny and both are FAT from eating constantly yet they seem to make no impact on the algae. Other than them, it is:

2 false percs, 4 blue damsles, and 2 yellow watchmans

[lReef lKeeper]

what about you lighting (photo) period ?? how lang are the lights on ?? what about phosphate readings ?? i added a seio 1500 to my tank for more turnover/flow and reduced my light cycle and my hair algea and diatoms are quickly disappearing.

[segraves1]

right now it fades in one at a time.....

PC1 on @ 6:00AM
PC2 on @ 6:30AM
MH1 on @ 7:00AM
MH2 on @ 7:30AM

MH1 off @ 8:30PM
MH2 off @ 9:00PM
PC1 off @ 9:30PM
PC2 off @ 10:00PM

never checked phosphate since I'm using 100% RO

[lReef lKeeper]

how long are the Halides on ?? pc's shouldnt make much of a difference in a 100 gallon tank. halides should be on no more than 6-8 hours per day, IMO.
you may want to check the phosphate levels in there. phosphates are a mojor building block for algea.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

[segraves1]

how long are the Halides on ?? .... halides should be on no more than 6-8 hours per day, IMO.


hmm....well I'm sitting at about 13-14 hours on the Halides........ lol

[lReef lKeeper]

that could be the MAJOR contributing factor to your algae outbreak. limiting the lighting and phosphates in the tank REALLY limits the amount of problem algaes in the tank.
phosphates are produced from way more than just water !! check out this article from Dr. Foster and Smiths website ...
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=65

[segraves1]

ok, so I set it to fade in one at a time.....

PC1 on @ 6:00AM
PC2 on @ 6:30AM
MH1 on @ 9:00AM
MH2 on @ 1:00PM

MH1 off @ 3:00PM
MH2 off @ 7:00PM
PC1 off @ 9:30PM
PC2 off @ 10:00PM

so that works out to 10 hours total with only 2 hours of both on....

[segraves1]

what I don't get is "how can I have too much light?"

SHOULDN"T the skimmer be keeping the tank clean enough that nothing could grow?

[lReef lKeeper]

i would back off the lights by 1 hour per week. if you are at 14 hours now ... back it down to 13 next week, 12 the next week and so on until you get it down to about 8 hours a day. you should then see the algea die off with a week or so after you get the lighting cut back to that level.
even my VHO's are not on that long. they stay on from 12pm through 8pm daily, with the PC's on from 10am through 10pm. they where on for 10 hours a day, but when i changed it, the algea started to disappear quickly !!

[lReef lKeeper]

its not "to much" light, they are just on for to long. think of it as natural sunlight. the sun isn't out for 14 hours a day, it is only out for a maximum of 12 hours. the suns peak time (10am-6pm) should be the time that your halides are on. the PC's should make up for the rest (dawn and dusk).
we are trying to make these tanks as natural as possible. to do this we need to try to recreate a nutural lighting/photosythetic period for out corals and the tanks in general. so you don't have to much light, its just on for to long.
light and phosphates are 2 key ingrediants for algea.

[PurpleAardvark]

Sorry bobby I would have to disagree on this one. What do you have going on for water flow? How often do you do water changes? Usally those are the top two for brown algea or bacteria which is what it is. post back and I will give you some real easy advise to kill it fast.

[lReef lKeeper]

you dont think 14 hours a day is to long for 400w MH's to be on ??

[segraves1]

Well the tank has two closed loop 850GPH pumps (rated on 3/4" pipe but running through 1-1/4"), and another 850GPH on the sump system.

The the sump system is probubly only getting half it's flow as best due to having to push through the chiller but I plan to redo this (split the chiller off to it's own pump).

I have some dead spots but they don't seem to be the problem areas. I'm getting hair growth even directly in front of the outlets of the closed loop (and these area are probubly equal to a MaxiJet 600 or more)

I did one massive water change about a month ago but really, that is when the hair algae started to really take off.

[lReef lKeeper]

with the flow you have, i stil think it is a lighting issue. i am interested in what Don has to say though.

[PurpleAardvark]

Due to the lights being phased(not both on for 14 hours) I would say the dead spots are more of an issue. i would try redurrecting your water flow to help kill the "dead spots". 90% of the time this is were the problems start. The bacteria staarts and feeds there and then spreads to random spots in the tank. To solve this problem is simple after you redirect your water flow due a water change sipion out as much of the algea as you can. Only due 25% water change. Next pick up some chemi clean. Falow the directions except one part due 2 treatments with out doing a water change in between. after the two treatments due a 25% water change, wait 5 days and due it again. I would also say step up you water change rutine a little to maybe 10% weekly or 25% bi weekly. Be sure also to replace your pc's every 6 months. They have a tendance to shift to a red specturm after that amout of time. you may not see it with your eyes but you rlive rock and corals can. Give this a shot and see if it helps. it has worked for 95% of my customers. The 5% belong on the short bus (trust me if you met them you would understand that.).

[lReef lKeeper]

but from i got from the posts ... all the lights are on for 12-14 hours per day !! thats why i was thinking it is a lighting issue. we were talking in an IM and he said his pc's are on for 12 or so hours AND the halides were on just as long, and all at the same time, from what i understand.
BTW ... i am tring to talk with you through Yahoo IM.

[segraves1]

chemi clean? what's that do? I'm really worried about adding chemicals to my tank since I have heard so many stories about them wiping out peoples inverts and corals.

the lights were on a good 12-13hours (both on)....one phased in 30mins before the other (ex: on 7AM then on 7:30AM) then off 30mins before the other (ex: off 8:30PM then off 9PM)....I didn't know you could have too much photo period?

[lReef lKeeper]

chemi-clean is an algea killer. it wipes out the "bad" algeas in the tank. i have added it with no adverse effects of any kind. i would recommend it but i think it is a band aid for the problem. we really need to find the source of the algea and repair that ALSO !!

[segraves1]

i would recommend it but i think it is a band aid for the problem. we really need to find the source of the algea and repair that ALSO !!

that's kind of my feeling.....I would like to find what is CAUSING the problem and fix that....

[lReef lKeeper]

ok, we will talk more tomarrow. i have to work early in the morning. we could probably start with the lights and go from there. lets see what others have to say about it too.

[segraves1]

sounds good!

[PurpleAardvark]

Ah the water flow iis the the issue once you fix that the treatmnet will get rid of it. 12-13 hours isn't that bad just shortin up the time in the winter to 10 to 11 hours.

[segraves1]

so what should I look at to figure out where I need more flow? I'm really trying to stay away from putting power heads all over the dang tank.

[PurpleAardvark]

Why don't we chat some time and I will help you out a bit too. obby has some good Ideas, me and him just chatted but why dont you post a pic and we can take a better look. I don't think you need more powerheads just to ajust them a bit thats all or your closed loop.

[segraves1]

I'll take some pictures tomorrow when I get home from school. I just walked past the tank and did a "look over" and honestly I see more algae growing IN THE WATER FLOW than in the "dead spots". How in the world is that possible?

[seahorsedreams]

What are your phosphate readings? Phosphates enter your tank mainly though fish food, tap water and carbon. Yes, the carbon you use in your filters to clean up some impurites will leach phosphate unless it is a quality phosphate free carbon. Geez, did that sentence make sense? And because you nitrates are reading zero doesn't mean it isn't being produced in huge amounts in your tank. The nitrates is what the algae is eating so it would make sense that there was little or no nitrate left to be detected.

Where do you get you water from? Do you you mix your own saltwater? If so, have you tested the freshwater before adding the salt? If you buy from an LFS that mixes water and you buy it by the gallon, also buy their RO/DI at that time and test it. It's the same water they are using to make the saltwater and if the TDS is high you can be assured there is extra nutrients in the saltwater also. I tested the RO/DI from the LFS and read 6ppm.... they hadn't changed their filters in awhile! If you buy treated natural seawater like scripps or catalina, test it and see if their are any phosphates or nitrates. If you've been mixing your salt with conditioned tap water..... I would say that was your biggest problem right there.

Even though you have good general flow doesn't mean there can't be a dead spot or two where you can't see. There could be a build up of detritus behind the rockwork. Detritus needs to be kept in the water column by a well directed flow so that your skimmer can do an even more efficient job.

How are you extracting the algae now? Be careful in removing it that you don't cause fragments to be distributed all over the tank. Scrubbing the rock can make the problem worse.

Adding a fuge full of macro algae can help with nutrient control. There will be less nutrients available to the nuisance algae and if you prune it often you can remove a considerable amount with each harvest.

As already said lights can play a role. If you have a light loving algae and your lights are on for XX number of hours, it just stands to reason that if you shorten their photosynthesis time, the algae has less time to be prolific. Is your tank near a window so that natural light is shining in on it. I had that problem and bought some car tint and tinted my huge 42 panel window. Best thing I ever did. Cut my AC bill by ALOT!

How often do you do water changes. When I had an outbreak once I wanted it gone so bad I changed 5 gallons everyday on a 55 gallon tank. So how bad do you want it gone..... go change water as frequently as you can stand it :-)

What does your invert clean up crew consist of? To be effective in fighting algae there needs to be a correct number of the correct creatures. If you are having a hair algae problem and you are heavy on the carrion-eating critters your clean up crew isn't as effective as it needs to be. So, you dump a load of hair algae-eating critters in to eat the algae and you've basically dumped in a load of fuel producing snails (or whatever) to grow the algae. You need not too much and not too little and the right mix.

Um, okay... that's all I can think of for now. Excuse and typos and grammar bloopers because I worked last night and I am typing with only one eye open at this point :-)

[seahorsedreams]

I'll take some pictures tomorrow when I get home from school. I just walked past the tank and did a "look over" and honestly I see more algae growing IN THE WATER FLOW than in the "dead spots". How in the world is that possible?

They don't care about the physical flow to much exactly... they just wanna be in a nutrient rich environment. A tank with dead spots has a build of detritus which fuels the environment for algae growth.

[segraves1]

wow....ok lots to answer.....

Well I have absolutely no idea what my phosphate readings are (I never thought I would need to check it since I use RO) but I will go this afternoon and buy a test kit for it. I do not use carbon or other filtering systems. I just use my mega skimmer and some micro (but for some reason the micro is not growing, go figure).

I mix my own saltwater from RO that I make at home. I DID however I do a massive water change about two months ago which required me to go buy 5gal bottles of DI water from the store (those self fill stations). After thinking about what people talked about, it MIGHT be possible that I could have added all kinds of phosphates from that water change (since I have no idea how often those things are kept up to spec). Again, I had never thought about phosphates but looking back it is possible. I use Instant Ocean salt in my system.

I’m sure there are a number of dead spots in the tank (not entirely dead but slow enough that things can settle there). I probably need to take another look at my directed flow and see if I can get rid of these dead spots because I have on occasions had to go in and “churn up” the stuff in these areas to clean them out.

I guess I have been making my algae problem worse since I have always been scrubbing the rocks and letting the algae go into the water column in hopes the skimmer will take it out (which it seems to be taking a lot out since the skimmer is ALWAYS full of nasty black crap).

I have a fuge now but for some reason the chaetomorpha just will not grow. It just stays in a “blob” and is actually being overgrown with micro. Instead the fuge is FULL of micro (same brown hair algae) that is growing like crazy. I have set these lights back to be on from 10-6 like the main tank.

I have shortened down the light hours to 10AM to 6PM (for the halides) and still have the Acentics come on at 7AM and off at 10PM. The tank is not in any way near any windows so that can’t be it.

Really, I never do water changes unless I do something stupid (such as two months ago). I try to just let the skimmer keep the tank clean and just top off fresh water (automatic) and salt.

My invert clean up crew is just a bunch of standard hermits and some turbo snails. Nobody has ever been able to give me a good list of clean up crew. I bought a Yellow Eye Tang (Ctenochaetus strigosus) and a lawn mower blenny specifically to take care of hair algae and for a while it was doing wonders, but again about the time I did that massive water change, things got out of hand. What should I get?

[PurpleAardvark]

I personally would do regular water changes. That will help you out alot. The reason your skimmer is going nuts is because your tank has gone into nutrant overload, which is feeding your hair algea. It doesn't help with the brown algea either. The dead spots are probly near were your output is.try drilling a couple of small holes on the side of the pvc were you closed loop comes out into the water to break up those areas. As a far as the water changes go I usally recommend 10% per week. I usally do 25% a week. After time when you have dillouted the pos. and nutr. that you have going on you could go every other week. IMO water changes are the key to keeping any tank free of hair algea.

[segraves1]

Well I did a phosphate reading today and couldn't even read it with the test kit. I then brought some water to my LFS (About the Reef) and had them test it on their cool colorrimiter. They tested it and came up with a reading of 0.03. So the water is "clear" of phosphate but they made the point that with as much algae as I have, I'm probubly "using it up" as fast as I make it.

SOOOO....here is what my plan (that Chris at About told me) is.

step 1: I'm going to stop feeding the fish for a week or two
step 2: I cranked the skimmer up to run "wet" and clear out as much as possible
step 3: wait and watch


I will take a look at the water flow tonight as see what I can do.

so thanks guys :)


side note: what kind of clean up crew should I invest in?

[lReef lKeeper]

hermits (blue leg), nassairius snails, astraea snails, and abalone snails. i have the abalones because they are reported to eat diatoms. maybe even a couple of emerald crabs and sand sifting stars or a serpent star.

[jojo22]

What about water changes?????

[segraves1]

I don't like water changes. I'm trying really hard to have a setup that is all bust self sustaining (just need top offs). As I said, I think things were going really well untill that masive water change was required and that messed things up.

[seahorsedreams]

II think things were going really well untill that masive water change was required and that messed things up.

Could you break down the process you believe got you from point "A" to "B" on this one?

[segraves1]

Could you break down the process you believe got you from point "A" to "B" on this one?

Well, prior to sending the alkalinity to 30+, the tank was just about finished with its cycle and everything was going smoothly. Then after I did the alkalinity spike (I miss read my test kit and kept watching for a "change" to happen that never would......), I had to change 90% of the water and as such required the use of water from a "fill your own bottles" RO station. My guess is the water was not as clean as it should have been because once this water change was done, over the next two weeks algae started to show up and has since grown like wild.

The other possibility is because of this water change, I could have had a die off in the tank (bacteria and such). At the same time, I had to start feeding my fish more (because they were in bad shape from the alkalinity spike) and this increased the bio load.

I'm sure it was not ONE thing but rather a number of small things adding up.

[lReef lKeeper]

ok, with the water changes (RO water), and lighting cut back lets see where we stand on a complete water test if you dont mind. do one today, one i a couple days, and so on for a week and see where we stand on the algae. sounds like a solid plan, how are the fish doing now ??

[segraves1]

fish are fine.....they got fat and lazy..... ;)

[seahorsedreams]

I'm sure it was not ONE thing but rather a number of small things adding up.

Yup, I bet you are right... it's why it's so hard to fight nuisance algaes.

How long has your tank been up and running?

[segraves1]

since early June

[seahorsedreams]

DOH! You had already said this... sorry about that!

That's twice I've done that. I work night shift and am on the computer when I get home. Sometimes I'm in a little haze :-)

[segraves1]

no porb