DIY sump filter skimmer...HOW???

[TomL]

I recently just setup my 55g to start a reef tank. It has been running for 8weeks now with about 10-15lbs of live rock and 15lbs of base rock, 40 lbs crushed coral, 10 lbs sand.
I currently only have the whisper 2 large Bio-Bag filter. I have been told this filter is nowhere near enough filtration for my reef tank and that I need a skimmer. I have the lighting setup with 2x54w 10,000k, and 2 x54w actinic bulbs.

I am looking for a DIY filter and sump. I am a newbie with saltwater fish/reef tanks but good with woodworking, mechanics. What can I do to build a pretty intense filter system for my fish tank? The fish tank resides on my first floor living room, the sump and filter I want in the basement 1 floor below. I can run the hoses down to the sump no problem. I just have no idea what I need to build this setup. Can I build my own protein skimmer? If I remove my biobag filter (which I want to do because it

[Whoyah]

A sump can be just about anything that will hold saltwater. Since you are going to house your sump in your basement and are not trying to swedge it in to the tank stand you, you really have a lot of options. Some people use rubber maid tubs, old aquariums, ag tubs. Really the bigger the better. The more volumne you have in the system the more stable you system will be. I will surf around and see if I can find a picture of a basement style sump. Regarding the skimmer, you can DIY the skimmer but I would recommend a store bought first to get you up and running. There is a lot alot of bad skimmers and lot of good skimmer out there and price does not always mean better. I like the Coralife Super Skimmers. Cheap but effective. There are some super cheap mods that really boost up the performance. The 125 gallon version might work well for you. You will need a nice size return pump since you will need to get the water back out of the basement. I like MAG pumps and Ocean runner. There maybe better choice given your height requirement.

[Whoyah]

Here is a good example of a basement sump/skimmer set-up.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-03/totm/index.php

[TomL]

Thanks for the info. I have been looking at some pictures of peoples sumps and refuge. What is the purpose of the fuge part? I see that many of these peoples sumps have a refuge but I do not see what they are doing for a filter, I have seen no bio-balls, foam, carbon…etc. How are they filtering there water? I was going this weekend to buy a 30gal tank to convert to a system like this, I am just confused with what I have to do, I see many different ways to put these baffles, yet in many I do not see any filter means in the baffles, while some of them I see foam, carbon…etc between the baffles that go to the next chamber. For the return pump can I use and pump from home depot or a pond pump, just something that has enough head to pump water up to the next floor. I take it that I do not need a pump to push it down stairs, as long as its self priming it will prime the feed line. The skimmers I am confused with all the diff types and which ones are better. I figure I would go with something a good size in case I want to upgrade my tank later I just wasn’t sure if I could build everything from local hardware stores or I had to mail order parts. If you could give me some insight on what to do to make an effective refuge/filter/sump so I can remove these biobags, I would appreciate it.

Thanks

[Whoyah]

A refugium (aka fuge) serves a couple different purposes. The first and primary reason for a fuge is that is a natural filter for the system. Macro algae (my suggest is chaetomorpha) is grown in fuge. The macro algae sucks up the nutrients from the food leftovers and poop in the tank causing the algae to grow. Occasioanally the excess algae is harvested (this can thrown away or traded to fellow reefers) removing the nutrients from the system. If the extra food was left to rot or decompose this would foul the water releasing toxins (ammonia, nitrate, nitrite...). If the macro algae is sucking up the leftovers, there will be less for micro algae (picture green slim) to grow with.

The second reason is to provide a place for the micro critters in your system to grow and thrive. The critters also eat the leftovers thus cleaning the tank. Many fish also enjoy these guys as a snack. Really your creating a whole food chain here.

The third is that it gives you more places to house live rock and live sand which adds to the natural filter of the system.

Check out http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/pet_supplies.cfm?c=3578+4585 and http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~pumps__index.html for retunr pumps. I know people like Mag and GenX

Like I said before, stick with a off the shelf skimmer for now. DIY later. You will have enough problems with out building your own skimmer. Check out a Coralife 125.

[TomL]

Thanks for all the good info. So from my understanding if I build a sump/refugium then there is no need for any filter media. All I need is this refugium with some macro algae and that will in turn become my filter. What about carbon, this is not needed anymore. Will it hurt if I build my sump/refugium and in the sump just hang my 2 large biobag whisper filter off the back for carbon filtration, on top of the macro algae. I guess I am learning more and more everyday; I was unaware that you can delete the filtration system after you add this refugium filter. I have seen some build a sump, with carbon and foam filtering, and also add a refugium to it. Does this hurt, or should I just keep it simple where I just grow the macro algae in one side, and add live rock to the system. I do not even know how to grow macro algae. Should I plant this in live sand and live rock, or should this go into a sep part of the sump system. If someone had a drawing on exactly how I should setup a sump with refuge. What stuff to put where, I would appreciate it.

[Reptoreef]

I suggest running carbon( I still do). Stay away from any kind of media like sponges, bio-balls, or wet/dry media as they will become nitrate factories unless rinsed vey well and very often. You will need to get macro starts and grow them out yourself. As far as sump designs, do a google on refugiums or reef tank refugiums. There are several different ways to set yourself up that would function well. Also, an addition to your sump would be a good quality skimmer.

[Reptoreef]

http://www.reefland.com/rho/0305/add3.php

[TomL]

thats interesting, thanks.

[Sweetpea]

Tom, I can tell by your questions that you are not only going to succeed, but you will become a fabulous reefer!

I second the Coralife Super Skimmer - quality at a readonable price - a hard combination to beat!

I find carbon to be very helpful. Some folks run it constantly and others occassionaly. As your system matures and you settle in to your groove, you will discover what works best for you.

Keep up the great work! :-D

[TomL]

I plan on putting together a sump/refuge filter this weekend. I will post some pics of what the tank looks like all setup. I am not sure when i will get the skimmer. Right now i have not even been using RO/DI water, i plan on buying a small home system soon. With all this stuff i am begining to wonder how much my electricity bill is going to climb, lol.

[Reptoreef]

Other great skimmers include:
Octipus
ASM
Euroreef
Deltec

[TomL]

Here is my next question. The silicon is drying on my sump, i have the pvc piping 3/4" and 2 U tubes on the back of my display tank, one is for pickup the other for return, these both feed to my basement with 3/4"ID tubing into the sump. Before i start to put the water in, how does this system work. The only pump i have is a return pump, and that is what pushes the water back upstairs, i have around 9feet of head that i need to pump (sump is on a stand off basement floor). How is the water going to get down stairs, and what is going to happen to my sump if the power goes out. If the pump goes off is it going to kill the syphon through the chambers, or is it going to keep flowing until my display tank is empty and my sump is overflowing. How does the tank even start to syphoon and push water to basement. I did not want to use an overflow box becuase since my tank is in the basement, i do not see a need for having this box on the back of my tank, the display tank will never overflow if the power goes out, it cant since the return pump is in the basement and there would be no flow to pump it upstairs.
Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

[Whoyah]

Tom,

You will need an overflow box, something like this http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=3642&Nty=1&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=All&N=2004&Ntt=overflow&Np=1), on the display in order to SAFELY draw water out of the display. You will need to leave enough extra room in in the sump to allow drainage of the pipes during a power outage. I hope this helps.

[TomL]

I do not understand what you mean by safely. What is the point of an overflow box. Is there a reason i just cant stick an upside down U shapped tube in the tank and run that to my sump in the basement. What is the point of the overflow box? I would assume that it is in case the tank overflows this holds the water, i just cant see how the tank can overflow with the sump being mounted lower then the display.

So from reading this there is only 1 pump needed to run a refuge, and that pump is put on the return line to pump the water against gravity. How does the system prime itself and collect the water from the above display tank?

[shovelhead91701]

what he means by safely is that without a proper overflow box if the power fails the water in the display tank will drain until it reaches a point where the u tube is above the display tanks water level by a syphoning action. the safely part comes in when you do not have a large enough sump to hold all this excess water and you end up with a shallow swimming pool for a basement. The overflow box is designed so that the amount of water that can be syphoned from the display tank during a power failure is drastically minimized. unless your display tank has overflows built into it (reef ready) then I STRONGLY reccommend you use a hang on back weir or overflow box.( I speak from experience! lol)

[Whoyah]

Exactly! ;) Thanks Shovelhead

[TomL]

Ok i will def get an overflow box.
I have the system all setup and from what i have seen so far when i turn the pump off the water will drain back the pump and the return to sump line. I was thinking that the best thing i can do is plumb in a check valve gate in the pump line, this will at least stop the water from flowing back down the pumps line into the sump. My problem seems to be that i cannot get this system dialed in. It seems that the water level is fluctuating all the time. Its only been a few hours and i have a ball valve on the pumps line that returns to the tank, and the return line that goes to feed my sump. I have tried to play with the valves and so far it seems that i have to close off the pump return line a little and the feed line down to my sump a very small amount. From what i saw i cant seem to dial it in, the water either rises to fast in my display, or drops to fast. If i keep checking it its one or the other. Could this be because i do not have a overflow box? Right now i have it syhoned going down to the sump, then i have it pressure fed back up to my display tank. The pump is a pond pump pushing 1300gph at 1foot head, i am around 9-10feet of head and it is rated around 400gph, and a max head height of 18'. How do you guys go about getting the system dialed in. I checked my sump in the basement and my goal is to get the water level equal in all 3 chambers. When i first started it was overfull on the baffle about 1" in the sumps feed (syphon from display) chamber. And it was about 2" under the baffle line in the tanks pump chamber. So i decided to turn the sump feed line down a tad to get the flow about equal to the baffle height, i now have it close. Then i tried turning the pump return line down a small amount to get the level to rise up to the baffle, it is very close but i am worried if i leave this system for a long period of time that my display is going to overflow on my kitchen floor. If the sump overflows i have it in a large plastic tote to catch the water. As you guys know i do not have an overflow box right now, just 2 U tubes in my display. I tried to shorten both tubes as close to the tanks water surface as possible, just to break the syhpon as fast as possible before my tank would be emptied.

Any input is appreciated.

O and i have 5lbs of live sand in my center chamber, it is a little less then 1 cubic foot , 12 W" x 12 L" x 9" high, where can i get macro algea to place in the tank, my local pet stores do not sell it, or they do not know what it is.

Thanks guys, i will take some pics soon

[Whoyah]

I would skip the check value. They are known not to work when a disaster strikes. The most sure fired way is to get the system running with a minimum amount of water in the sump, mark the water line and then power off the return pump. The amount the sump fills to is the amount you need to leave as extra space in case of a power outage. Better to leave a little extra.

One thing to keep in mind is that water level where the return pump will drop over time due evaporation. The rest of the chambers are not effected since they are the higher then the return chamber. I go through about a gallon of water in my 65 display with 30 gallon sump due to evaporation. I would recommend leaving the overflow line from the display unrestricted and just adjusting the return line. I am guessing your problems are due to evaporatation more then anything else.

You can also drill a couple small holes in the u-tubes just below the water the line to break a the syphon in case of problems.

[TomL]

Right now my problem is not from evap. The system has only been running 2hrs. I actually let it run overnight and noticed that the water level hardly dropped in my display tank. Right now the water in my sump is over all the baffles by about 1". I am not worried about the sump overflowing when the tank drians in case of power outage, the thing i am worried about is when the power comes back on and it pumps my whole sump back into the display tank. I cannot leave that much room upstairs in the display, that would mean i would need about 15gallons of space in my display. If i buy this overflow and the power kicks off, the return line where the pump is installed will syphon all the water down to a point to where my U tube breaks the syphon, even if i have a overflow. It seems that Both lines work as a syphon when pump is off, the pump primes the return line to a syphon when there is power failure. Without a check valve in that line i see disaster. Also Whoyah you have a good point, I could cut the U tubes in my display so when the water drops from the display, it breaks the syphon before my sump overflows. That is a way to minimize problems with the sump, i just cant figure a way to do it upstairs with the display. Maybe a checkvalve in the pump line and a overflow box. I am just not confident that the overflow is going to work. If there is a power outage and my pump kicks back on but the feed to sump (overflow U tube) is not primed then my display tanks overflows in my livingroom. If i have this overflow, will it re-prime itself fast enough that it will not go on the floor??

Thanks guys

Sorry so long

[shovelhead91701]

in your setup you are unable to flow enough water to keep up with your pump it sounds like...... You seldom need a valve on your return lines unless you are like me and use 2 overflows ran with 1 1/2" pipes lol but my sump is oversized as well so the extra flow in is not a problem. you need only to adjust the ball valve on the return line a little at a time about every 5 minutes or so until you get her dialed in where the return flow equalizes with the amount of drainage that your setup is capable of pulling out of the tank. SMALL CORRECTIONS OVER A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME!

[shovelhead91701]

P.S. i also did put a check valve in my return line as you were mentioning but no need in the return line due to the overflow box on the drain line to sump.

[Whoyah]

If the overflow box you buy has an aqualifter on it, it will re-prime the display drain. The aqualifter draws air out of the u-tube until the syphon begins.

[TomL]

I recently just built this overflow. Once primed and working it is self repriming on it own. http://www.sirensongboutique.com/animals/images/overflow.gif I did build it out of 1" as the drawing says, i know this is large but i read that many tried scaling it down and it did not work as it should. If i open both ball valves, drain and return on pump the tank will not stay level, plus the drain works to fast that it creates a large whirlpool and makes ALOt of noise. I have turned the drain down the slightest bit so it does not make that noise, plus the water level is 1" over my first baffle in my sump. Now i had my pump ball valve all the way open and it fills a tad to quick and emptys the sumps pump section to a little less then half. Since this is no good i turned that valve down a tad and now that section is about 1" below the others but only seems to fluctuate the smallest little bit if i stare at it. I let it go overnight with this unit http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=117272-84862-BWD-HWA sitting on the top brim of my tank to alert me of a VERY bad situation. It apears that over about 9hrs that the tank rose about 1/8" to a 1/4" i cant be exact. This morning i tried messing with it again and thought i got it close so it stopped fluctuating but i still think it is going to either go up or down. Its to hard to tell from looking at the tank so i go downstairs and stare at the pump chamber for a min or 2 and see if i can see that move. Is it suppose to stay perfect or will it go up or down a tad over time. I am just worried because i do not want it to keep rising in my tank and overflow on the ground, and i dont want it to go so low that my overflow is above the water line and the syhpon breaks. Then we all know what happens if for some reason it does not restart on its own like it should. Any input on if the level fluctuates on your guys a small amount.

Thanks

[Whoyah]

As I suggested before, buy a commerical overflow with a aqualifter and save yourself the heartache and cost of a flood. Signing off.

[TomL]

Thanks for all the input guys. I think i got it figured out. I designed it so that even if it does all drain back into the sump, there is enough room in there to hold the water in the display, i did the math and 2" from display i will need 3" in sump. I also made sure not to fill the sump to much that if the return lost prime, whatever is in the pump chamber is just under what that display tank can hold. It took alot of trial and error but it seems to be good now. We will see how my pump holds up. It is not recomended for salt water, says fresh water ponds, and it is not magnetic drive.

Thanks
-Tom