Pro-biotic reefing

[Mike]

Thought we could get into a discussion on Pro-biotic reefing. In the past we all tried to keep the water pretty sterile. That was what we read and what everyone was doing. Now it seems that Pro-biotic reefing (the addition of bacteria and daily carbon dosing) is just as effective as using Ozone, UV, Ect.

I am currently using the Brightwell system (I use the NeoMarine salt as well) and so far have been pleased. I used the Zeovit system in the past but it was too cost prohibitive on my large tank and really difficult to keep up with the dosing. The BW system is much more affordable and easier to maintain for me.

[speedstar]

Is there a magic single add to use from them if you want to dose vodka still and not use there whole system. I'm ignorant on this and have never researched there method so be gentle if i'm way off base in my thinking.

[Mike]

Most people use the Microbacter7 and a carbon source. You do not have to use the stones.

[stunreefer]

I've used ZEOvit, Fauna Marin Ultralith (almost identical to ZEO), a VSV type concoction and Prodibio. I've been most happy with Prodibio as it's cost effective and doesn't require as much dosing as the others, yet IME has been just as effective as the others. Brightwell is newer and I've never tried it, but all in all they're all nearly identical in components.

I will say that the "newer" ZEOvit supplements are much weaker than the original (when they came to US) bacteria and carbon sources. They're more diluted, which = you must use more, which = they make more $ (and you spend more ;)).

With Prodibio I dose one vial of bacteria every other week after my water change (which I do weekly), and one vial of carbon source every week. No other additions or dosing of anything.

[Mike]

When I ran the denitrator (another form of Pro-biotics) it was so efficent that I had to take it off!!! I could not add enough food to the tank. I kept it in case of emergency though!!! That thing sucks nitrate in.

[schminksbro]

I am dosing MB7, vodka, lugols, and aminos. I am also running the stones. I love the results.:)

[speedstar]

I am dosing MB7, vodka, lugols, and aminos. I am also running the stones. I love the results.:)

Who's aminos? are they available local?

[Mike]

I think that Zeo and Brightwell make good Amino's. I also think maybe Prodi-bio makes them.

[ReeferRob]

My question is what happens when you are forced to stop dosing the Probido?

[Mike]

Your system will start to possibly build up nutrients. I have never used that system so I cannot really speak to it. I like the brightwell because I can put it on dosing pumps and not worry when I go on vacations.

[The Rugger]

Pro-biotic reefing = ???

[Mike]

Adding regular cultures of fresh bacteria and providing them a carbon source so that they assimilate the nutrients and when they exhaust there food adn start to die off they are removed by the skimmer (nutrient export).

[stunreefer]

My question is what happens when you are forced to stop dosing the Probido?
What would force you to stop?

As Mike mentioned, it helps keep NO3 and PO4 down, so naturally they would begin to rise over time. Nothing drastic would happen that's for sure...

I like the brightwell because I can put it on dosing pumps and not worry when I go on vacations.
That is nice to automate...

I dose Prodibio's bac (biodigest) every other week and the carbon source (bioptum) once a week. I've forgot to dose the carbon source before, and couldn't one time because I was out of town and nothing negative happened at all. It's a very easy, low maintenance system, and since I saw the same results as I did with daily dosing regimens I've stayed with it ;)

Adding regular cultures of fresh bacteria and providing them a carbon source so that they assimilate the nutrients and when they exhaust there food adn start to die off they are removed by the skimmer (nutrient export).
:worship: Well said...

I think of it as putting the bacteria that exists in our tanks on steroids :guns3:

[Mike]

Mine is pretty much set it and watch now with automating it. I ahve a couple liters of Potassion to does and then I am going to go with the powdered form so I can just add it to the calcium and dose it that way.

As I said I ahve to empty the skimmer cup daily now. I have good polyp extension and normal looking colors. Nothing is too pale or pastel colored.

[schminksbro]

I use Brightwell's Coral Amino. I order online.

Who's aminos? are they available local?

[Mike]

I have not started using them yet. I have not had the need just yet.

[schminksbro]

I was carbon dosing prior to going full neozeo. (stones, MB7, vodka) My colors were a little pastel. They are getting richer now.

[ReeferRob]

DSB's are not recommended with this type of dosing system correct?

And so I understand better:
Brightwells Microbacter7 and vodka is the same as
biodigest and bioptum

Also high alk. is bad, how do you keep it down? Change my salt to what, the BW salt? Did they fix their problems they had with the first few batches?

[Mike]

I am using the BW salt and so far I am not having issues with ALK burn. I keep mine below 8.0 now and the CA at approx 400 with a MG of 1300. I added a sand bed to the tank when I committed to doing a probiotic approach. I must say that I like the sand look better (never got used to the BB) even though it piles up in certain spots and I have to redistribute it. I have pieces growing well now and the colors are rich and vibrant without being pastel.

[dejavu]

This is something new that I have tried on my new system. I went with Probibio for various reasons. All I can say is that I'm a believer. After a few weeks of PO4's at .18 ppm (hanna)... a week after starting the 6 week startup my PO4's dropped to .02 ppm in 10 day!

I have looked back. My PO4's have reached no higher than .04 ppm. It's been 5 weeks since starting and I have yet to have any of the nausine algeas that most experiance with a new setup. Couldn't be happier :D.

[Mike]

I now what you mean Dejavue. I tried it with the zeovit additives but they proved to difficult to tweak. This is pretty straight forward and not I have the blessing of automated dosing thanks to the profilux set up. That I think has been one key to this working out for me. I set it and can make minor adjustments and then watch for a while without any manual input of additives.

I am also a believer in the 3 part additives and/or balling salts. I am adding Potassion (BW) and Ferrion(BW) along with lugols once a week now.

[stunreefer]

DSB's are not recommended with this type of dosing system correct?
Correct, they're unnecessary and can be counter-productive.

And so I understand better:
Brightwells Microbacter7 and vodka is the same as
biodigest and bioptum
Basically yes. Any probiotic system utilizes a "bactaria" (microbacter7, biodigest, ZEObac, UltraBIO, etc.) and a "carbon source" (bioptum, ZEOstart, UltraBAK, vodka, vinegar, sugar, etc.). Choose your poison ;)

Also high alk. is bad, how do you keep it down? Change my salt to what, the BW salt? Did they fix their problems they had with the first few batches?
Personally I wouldn't use the BW salt - the claims that Chris publically stated are outrageous IMO and I wouldn't even lean that way.

Without adjusting anything (when using RC, etc.) the best salt hands down IME is Get Tanked Aquariums Formula 2 (NSW parameters). It's spot on consistancy wise, mixes incredibly well, you name it...

I have looked back. My PO4's have reached no higher than .04 ppm. It's been 5 weeks since starting and I have yet to have any of the nausine algeas that most experiance with a new setup. Couldn't be happier :D.
Great to hear Brian, I knew you'd love it :D

[tankdude]

Can someone put up some links to some sites? I'd like to do some research on this method. It sounds kind of cool, but I'm terrible at doing daily doses of any kind.

[dejavu]

Great to hear Brian, I knew you'd love it :D

Thanks Austin. I talked with many people that have had long term success with it before using it. The best part about it is the dosing schedule. Once you finish the first 6 weeks, it's once a week. Dosing digest one week and bioptim the next.

Once things settle down alittle in the tank, I'm thing of tiring and other carbon source. A few other I talk to are looking into mix bacteria systems too. This is very interesting too. I'll post more on it latter.

[schminksbro]

Hey, are you running the stones as well or just bact/carbon? I am huge excited to see your tank develope. Triple your last tank should be something to behold.:)


Thanks Austin. I talked with many people that have had long term success with it before using it. The best part about it is the dosing schedule. Once you finish the first 6 weeks, it's once a week. Dosing digest one week and bioptim the next.

Once things settle down alittle in the tank, I'm thing of tiring and other carbon source. A few other I talk to are looking into mix bacteria systems too. This is very interesting too. I'll post more on it latter.

[Mike]

I have the stones running on my tank. Unsure about a difference. I am in the wait and see crowd. I think I will haveto run these more than 6 months to really know. I don't know if the ammonia claims will hold up. I am not getting the bio film now like I was when I first started.

[Werdlone]

Schminskbro....are you running phosban or GFO still? I'm just wondering if I should switch out my GFO with the brightwell stones?

[schminksbro]

No I am not running GFO. Just carbon and the stones.


Schminskbro....are you running phosban or GFO still? I'm just wondering if I should switch out my GFO with the brightwell stones?

[ReeferRob]

I would like to know what types of coral you guys are keeping in the bact driven systems?

[dejavu]

Hey, are you running the stones as well or just bact/carbon? I am huge excited to see your tank develope. Triple your last tank should be something to behold.:)

No stone. Their is no need for reactor or stones... just bio digest& bioptim. Once you reach ULN you can add Bio boost or AA's. I'm not there yet and seeing how the setups new it might take some time.

Thanks on the complement! This tank will take some time to rebuild coral and fish wises but I'm in no hurry. Losing all my coral has me think about a different direction with this tank.

[dejavu]

Here is a little more info on Prodibio if you all are interested...

After talking to several knowledgeable people, this seems to be the best dosing regimen for the typical system. This is what I used to start:

6 week Initial Nutrient Reduction Phase:

Week 1:
Wednesday
BioDigest 1amp per 50 gallons (This higher overdose is for the very first day only, some people even do 1amp per 15 gallons)

Saturday
Bioptim 1amp per 50 to 100gallons

Week 2:
Wednesday
BioDigest 1amp (treats up to 250 gallons)

Saturday
Bioptim 1amp per 50 to 100 gallons

Week 3:
Wednesday
BioDigest 1amp (treats up to 250 gallons)

Saturday
Bioptim 1amp per 50 to 100 gallons

Week 4...,5...,6....


...continue this process for apprx 6 weeks until nutrient levels drop. Notice you are dosing the ampoules once per week, just on different days during the same week. Do NOT use Reefbooster during this initial 6 week nutrient reduction phase.

After week 6 Pintail Nutrient Reduction Phase, your 'real' more long-term dosing regimen begins.



Nutrient Reduction Long-Term maintenance Phase
Week 1: BioDigest (1 amp treats up to 250g)
ReefBooster

Week 2: BioOptim (1amp treats apprx 50-100gallons)

Week 3: BioDigest (1 amp treats up to 250g)
ReefBooster

Week 4: BioOptim (1amp treats apprx 50-100gallons)

....so on and so forth.

The ReefBooster is simply 'nutrients' and "food" for the tank. If you are noticing your corals lightening up too much try using the ReefBooster once a week, instead of once every other week. On the same note, if you have hair algae, brown corals, diatoms, etc. there is absolutely no reason for you to be using ReefBooster in the tank. Wait until the nutrient levels are low enough before using the Reef Booster.


It's important to note that you need a solid skimmer for this system to work efficiently and effectively. If you have a cheesy hang-on the back skimmer, chances are that this type of system won't work out well.

Remember, this is a long-term regimem. Don't except result in a couple weeks, it'll take a good 2-3 months before you start noticing dramatic results. Since this is a long-term regimine, it's most economical to purchase the 30 vial containers of the BioDigest, Bioptim and Reefbooste

[Mike]

That is true about long term commitment to see results with any of these bacterial driven systems. I just backed down on the MB7 tonight a few ml's myself. Not seeing to much lightening but I wnat to dose as little as possible in terms of amounts.

[Mike]

Tested NO3 today and it is clear on the salifert kit (which usually detects trace when the Elos kit is reading 0.00). I added another fish today (a small six line) and I think it is time to step up the feeding.

I am doing very little now of the MB7 and the Bio-fuel.

[Mike]

Finally have all eight dosing pump functional now :)

[speedstar]

Finally have all eight dosing pump functional now :)

How often are you having to change the rubbers? is the product that hard on them like Kalk?

[Mike]

maybe yearly

[speedstar]

What is the consensus of starting to dose vodka without MB7 (till it arrives)

what rate? Was going to start at .5ml for 65g daily.

[schminksbro]

I would wait. That way you can follow the recomendations as far as getting your bacteria base started. It will lessen your chances of cyano and such that can bloom with the addition of carbon. The MB7 should out compete it.


What is the consensus of starting to dose vodka without MB7 (till it arrives)

what rate? Was going to start at .5ml for 65g daily.

[speedstar]

you forget how impatient I am. I ran only vodka for 2 years previously had the occasional snot crap.




I would wait. That way you can follow the recomendations as far as getting your bacteria base started. It will lessen your chances of cyano and such that can bloom with the addition of carbon. The MB7 should out compete it.

[schminksbro]

Yeah, I carbon dosed prior to going to a full probiotic system. I think you can avoid some issues though if you wait. May I suggest dosing yourself with vodka in the mean time?:drunk2::drunk:


you forget how impatient I am. I ran only vodka for 2 years previously had the occasional snot crap.

[Mike]

Andy has a good point on dosing yourself and waiting on the tank :)

[schminksbro]

What do you guys think of dosing vitamin C as a carbon source? Possibly as a substitution for your regular carbon every few doses? Sir Patrick asked me about it and I thought I would introduce it into the conversation. It should be noted the one must use buffered Vit C as otherwise it will affect your alk. Beyond that I haven't read a ton on the subject but I have heard it can have great results with "weeds" such as zoas and palys.

[Mike]

I have thought about it but I am waiting to get things stable first

[Rabidgoose]

Is this method recommended for a zoa/paly tank? I am finally starting to move forward with the cube and curious to try this method if it will be beneficial.

thanks........chuck

[speedstar]

I think most beifits show in SPS tanks, low nitrate Po4 though would keep algae away no matter what.

[Mike]

That is a tough question but anecdotally it has not been bad for my zoanthids. I have them in a tank that is attached to the main system. I am sure that they likely will feed on the bacteria as well.

[Sir Patrick]

^thats what I was thinking

[Mike]

It makes sense. Like I said I have had no ill effects from it with mine.

[speedstar]

MB7 ? why are you suppose to dilute mb7 (amount needed) in tank water (8oz) prior to dumping it in?

[schminksbro]

Probably just to get it to mix in better. I just dose it straight in with no ill effects.


MB7 ? why are you suppose to dilute mb7 (amount needed) in tank water (8oz) prior to dumping it in?

[Mike]

I dose it straight too. It goes into a turbulent area and I am sure it mixes in well.

[speedstar]

What causes the brown snot like stuff? I assume it is the carbon source and not MB7. can upping the MB7 eliminate it?

[schminksbro]

Back off the vodka.


What causes the brown snot like stuff? I assume it is the carbon source and not MB7. can upping the MB7 eliminate it?

[ReeferRob]

One month later I'm kicking the dust off this thread!!!

Curious to hear how you guys are doing with these bac driven systems?
Those of you who stuck with it and continue to and those that have maybe stopped of fallen off!

Im starting to read into it again now that my fug/sump needs to rearranged.

[schminksbro]

I am still fully probiotic. My corals faded a bit which was expected when I hit ULN. I am now dosing Vitamarin M, Potassium, and Restor along with MB7 and vodka. Colors are darkening and growth is rapid. I am happy.


One month later I'm kicking the dust off this thread!!!

Curious to hear how you guys are doing with these bac driven systems?
Those of you who stuck with it and continue to and those that have maybe stopped of fallen off!

Im starting to read into it again now that my fug/sump needs to rearranged.

[ReeferRob]

At the beginning I was testing NO3 daily. Now I base everything on the look of the tank. You are best off to start very slow.

While trying to determine your daily dose amount during initial start up, how often are you testing your water while on a probiotic plan?

Also are you guys adding the extra supplements from the get go? or only after you achieve "ULN"?

[Mike]

I am still with the system as well. Changed out some of the stones last week. I have everything on auto pilot now with the dosers. I am dosing POtassion, Iron, MB7, Bio-fuel, Vitamin -c, and restore.

[Sir Patrick]

On day 5 of dosing. On the second day, I could see the water clarity improve alot- very noticable when all the lights are out over the tank.

[ReeferRob]

What system are you using Chris? MB7 vodka or Prodibio or......?

[Sir Patrick]

Dosing MB7 for the first 2 weeks, then add into the vodka dosing (or possibly VSV). Still got a bit of time before I get into dosing a carbon source, but looking forward to it.

[Mike]

I am holding now at 0.00 nitrates and 0.02 phosphates. I am starting to cut back on the amount I dose now. Getting ready to switch to the VSV in a few days (once bio-fuel runs out).

[Mike]

Just an update:

I have been using the VSV solution but I am going back with the bio-fuel just because it is simpler to manage for me. I am continuing with low dose daily MB7 editions along with all the previous elements.

I have noticed better coloration and even coral recovery. I have had pieces that look to be on the brink come back and thrive. The corals are encrusting much faster than in my previous experiences with SPS.

Recently I started addign the Amino's and the results are good. I am adding 30ML a day right now and that seems to be doing the trick. I add once the lights go out and the polyps are fully extended on most of the corals. I also shut the skimmer down at this time for one hour.

Nitrates are staying below 1.0ppm even though I have 27 fish that I feed 3 times a day. Phosphate is 0.01-0.02 on my Hanna meter.

[Sir Patrick]

I am still dosing the mb7. Dont have the 37 cube running anymore, but have been dosing a little less than 1/2 a cap every day to the 10 gallon since it was set up. Every 3 days, I give the tank a single drop of vodka. I was every other, but noticed some red cyno (really bright deep colored stuff!) develop in a couple places. Had to cut back a little. Got some vitamarin C from the swap...still trying to figure out how to tie that one in with what I am doing....

[Mike]

I am dosing according to the direction but breaking it up over the course of a week instead of large additions. It is on one of the Profilux pumps. The only things I dose by hand are the Aminos, ReStore and RePlenish.

[ReeferRob]

Good to hear its still working well for you Mike. Its nice to hear that you are getting good results and noticed that the corals encrust more readily and are more healthy.

I plan to begin Prodibio here once the tax returns hit! I've noticed a few random areas of HA popping up in random places, and the need to clean the glass daily is becoming a task I won't miss.

[Mike]

I was a skeptic at first myself becuase of my Zeovit experience as well as the experience with the former distributor Captive Oceans. Once I read that this is formulated to be less prone to the swings in nutrients that happen with small adjustments to Zeo dosing I decided to give ita go and I am glad I did.

[ReeferRob]

Well I got my stuff so I am ready to start. Im still nervous. If it aint' broke don't fix it mentality is holding me back. My tank is rocking, skimmer never works properly and I think that will be solved with the Tunze Osmolator. So what ever nutrients I had been missing, i won't.
Is it a bad idea to start a nutrient reduction program, when nutrients aren't really an issue??

I guess I don't want to ruin what good I have going now!

[Mike]

I swapped one for another when I started the BW. I took the Sulfur Denitrator off-line and replaced it with teh MB7 abd Bio-fuel. If you do start it start it with the maintenance instructions becuase there is no need for you to lower nutrients.

[stunreefer]

skimmer never works properly and I think that will be solved with the Tunze Osmolator.
Rob, is your skimmer in an chamber where the level doesn't fluctuate?

Also, I agree with Mike. If your nutrients aren't "bad" then I would start with maintenance dosage, maybe a bit more on the bacteria side in order to help establish the system.

GL!

[ReeferRob]

Rob, is your skimmer in an chamber where the level doesn't fluctuate?

No it's not. Remember the sump was designed with a really narrow 1st chamber for a small skimmer. When I upgraded my skimmer I wanted to avoid cutting and fitting new baffels so I just stuck the skimmer in my second chamber. Which unfortunately does fluctuate with water height. I was hoping a better ATO with a smaller range would allow the level to stay more closely at the ideal water height for the skimmer to work more efficiently.



Also, I agree with Mike. If your nutrients aren't "bad" then I would start with maintenance dosage, maybe a bit more on the bacteria side in order to help establish the system.

GL!

How accurately do I need to measure this stuff? 1 vial per 1,000 liters every 15 days is what the suggested dose is.
Can the remains be saved at all? Is it even possible? Seems like a waste to not use it......

Lastly, where do you think is the best place to actually dose. Directly into the DT? Before the skimmer? Does it even matter? LOL

[stunreefer]

Yeah, an ATO should def help with that, but we might come up with something else to keep it perfectly stable... I'll roll out here soon enough (less snow maybe, UGH!) - need to see the tank anyways bro!

You can dose the whole vial. There was some talk on another forum (don't remember where, RC maybe?) where Prodibio noted you could stick the vial in a Potato (just to keep upright) in the fridge and save it for "X" amount of days (a week I think). Check that Prodibio thread I linked you in a PM...

Dose into a high flow area in your display. I don't turn the skimmer off, but I wouldn't recommend dosing right in fornt of it... it will either kill the head or skim it out!

[schminksbro]

Just a heads up Rob. As I am sure you know Probiotics is basically a way to increase your skimmer's efficiency. The bacteria consumes nutrients and your skimmer skims it out. I would get the skimmer working properly prior to starting with the dosing.


Well I got my stuff so I am ready to start. Im still nervous. If it aint' broke don't fix it mentality is holding me back. My tank is rocking, skimmer never works properly and I think that will be solved with the Tunze Osmolator. So what ever nutrients I had been missing, i won't.
Is it a bad idea to start a nutrient reduction program, when nutrients aren't really an issue??

I guess I don't want to ruin what good I have going now!

[ReeferRob]

It skims very good to great, I just need to be constantly adjusting it. It deffinetely pulls some nasty stinky stuff when its in the "sweet spot"

[Mike]

I adjust mine every so often too (minor). With the probiotic approach I can feed my fish like the pigs they are and in turn feed the corals.

I have trace nitrate from time to time and my PO4 get's in the 0.03-0.05 range (not to worried about that). I have been happy with the system I am using.

I keep my POtassium between 380-400 also.

[Sir Patrick]

Couple things I have been meaning to add-

Vodka- even a small drop/day is pretty pottent on a small tank. I have heard that VC is an inferior carbon source. I am going to see how the VC works on a small tank, and see if it might be a good sustitute for the VSV's of probiotics on small tanks. Will keep things posted.


It was bound to happen, but I got a lil lazy on the vodka dripping. Somthing that as usual, I should have known better....I got some cyno/slime in the tank. Backed of the carbon dosing, but wont go away. Still dosing MB7. Gonna take mikes advice- and siphone the stuff out, and keep up on it till its gone. I have dripped a bit more than I should have a few times...oops! Gonna be, and stay, more cautious from now on.

I dont think my cpr bakpak (on a 10 gallon) is cutting it either. Sure its airating the water fine, but just isnt doing the nesicary waste pulling it should. Might be a contributer to some of my issues too.

Let me know what you guys think about these couple statments/observations I have come across!


Side note- My green slimer looks better right now than it did when I first got it!! Zoas are all happy and colorful too!

[ReeferRob]

Still to much of a wuse to get started on this. I need to yank up the skirt and do it, I know. Just nervous, don't want to ruin a good thing.

Are you guys still carrying on with regular scheduled water changes while on a bac driven plan?

Do you change anything to your routine? For example lesser volume more frequently?

[stunreefer]

Chris, if your skimmer isn't doing much I wouldn't be dosing any carbon bac/source. As Andy mentioned an effiecient protein skimmer is crucial to any of these systems. I think growing some macroalgae to suck up nutrients would be a better route in the absence of a skimmer.

Rob, if your levels are sittin' pretty I would mess with anything. I've honestly backed down almost completely on Prodibio after switching everything over to the big tank... even though I feed a lot I just don't have a big bioload. I use and like probiotic methods so I can feed the **** outta fish and not worry about excess nutrients, but right now my bioload is quite low. Keep up on your water changes as normal. I don't change anything in my routine, just make sure the ksimmer is working properly, if not it's counter-productive. The point of a probiotic system is to introduce certain bacteria and carbon source(s) to feed on PO4 and NO3, then skim it all out (with some being consumed by corals). If your not efficiently skimming it out, your polluting your tank.

[ReeferRob]

Chris, if your skimmer isn't doing much I wouldn't be dosing any carbon bac/source. As Andy mentioned an effiecient protein skimmer is crucial to any of these systems. I think growing some macroalgae to suck up nutrients would be a better route in the absence of a skimmer.

Rob, if your levels are sittin' pretty I would mess with anything. I've honestly backed down almost completely on Prodibio after switching everything over to the big tank... even though I feed a lot I just don't have a big bioload. I use and like probiotic methods so I can feed the **** outta fish and not worry about excess nutrients, but right now my bioload is quite low. Keep up on your water changes as normal. I don't change anything in my routine, just make sure the ksimmer is working properly, if not it's counter-productive. The point of a probiotic system is to introduce certain bacteria and carbon source(s) to feed on PO4 and NO3, then skim it all out (with some being consumed by corals). If your not efficiently skimming it out, your polluting your tank.

I do feed like crazy and want to increase the bioload here very very soon.

Params are great, but I do have little tufts of hair algae in the most random places. In fact their are a few bundles that blow around on the sand like tumble weeds in the old west!!
My glass needs to be cleaned almost twice a day too. Would like to cut down on this too.

by the way the skimmer is banging better than ever now that evap is better controlled with the Tunze Osmolator!1

[ReeferRob]

Austin

I know I asked you this once before, but don't remember. Do you think it would be okay or not worth it to split the dose half and half with the DT and the grow out tank? Or should I just go full vial on both?

[stunreefer]

Then your likely justified in starting this scheme up - give it a go! Nothing negative (quickly) will happen with Prodibio.

[ReeferRob]

Okay tomorrow night Im doing water changes on both tanks and will dose both with the prodibio.

If anything goes wrong Im coming after YOU!...........J/King!

[Mike]

JUst take it slow :) Dose like it is maintenance!!!

[ReeferRob]

Well the deed is done. Water changes to all tanks. Added my first dose of Biodigest to the DT. Time well tell if this was a wise choice or not!!??

[schminksbro]

Did you notice improved water clarity about 1 hour after putting it in?


Well the deed is done. Water changes to all tanks. Added my first dose of Biodigest to the DT. Time well tell if this was a wise choice or not!!??

[Sir Patrick]

I dont recall one hour, but the next day- I have to say I did!!

Cant wait to hear robs experiance.

[ReeferRob]

Did you notice improved water clarity about 1 hour after putting it in?

Ooops, didn't think to look. Check after reading this last night and the lights were off.


I dont recall one hour, but the next day- I have to say I did!!

Cant wait to hear robs experiance.

So far......nothing much. Water does seam a bit clearer. But the glass is filthy today after getting home from work. Probably cause the skimmer shut it's self down at some point during the day.

But ya, probably WAY too soon to make any judgements.

[ReeferRob]

I was skeptical that the water clarity in the DT tank could get any better than it was, but it is very noticeable I feel.
Algae on the glass still needs to be cleaned daily. Haven't noticed much else beyond that. Still too early to tell.

I did end up dosing the grow out tank on Friday, and there was a considerable change in water clarity on Saturday afternoon. Again other than that no noticeable changes other than skimmer production on both tanks.

[kane720]

ive been thinking about going with a low nutrient tank for a while. im in the process of moving. i was thinking about setting up a 150 rubbermaid tub (which im going to use as a future sump) and moving all my coral with the water they're currently in plus new water in to the rubbermaid. my question is can i use this to kick start the rubbermaid so the move would go a little more smoothly?

[ReeferRob]

ive been thinking about going with a low nutrient tank for a while. im in the process of moving. i was thinking about setting up a 150 rubbermaid tub (which im going to use as a future sump) and moving all my coral with the water they're currently in plus new water in to the rubbermaid. my question is can i use this to kick start the rubbermaid so the move would go a little more smoothly?

Not sure what your asking, but yes you can use Prodibio and other bacterial sources to help speed a cycle.

[stunreefer]

Not sure what your asking, but yes you can use Prodibio and other bacterial sources to help speed a cycle.
You answered it Rob, that's what john was asking ;)

John, keep in mind bacterial driven systems have been dubbed, "Low Nutrient" or "Ultra Low Nutrient" systems, when in fact this can be accomplished with many forms of filtration including macroalgae in a refugium, GFO, etc., etc. Besides that point, the name "Ultra Low Nutrient" system drives me up the wall! An "ultra low nutrient" environment is the desert, where nothing grows, or the open ocean where there is little nutrients. The reefs are thriving with nutrients to keep everything alive and growing, the trick is just the right amount of nutrients. Rather than calling it "ultra low nutrient" system, they should be reffered to *** bacterial driven or probiotic system and explained as a system that "tightly cylces nutrients" through utlilizing a bacterial and carbon source.

For me, Prodibio is easy, and I don't have to run any extra equipment or a refugium section (that causes other areas of the sump to grow algae - hate it!). If I had a ton of room, I would be running multiple "refugiums" accomplishing different things in each, such as macroalgae growth, rock rubble, sponge growth, etc. Alas, I rent, and don't have the room nor want to worry about it when I move ;)

[Sir Patrick]

Anyone have any info on maracyn (erethromyacin- the antbiotic) and bac driven systems? I dont know much, but seems to me its a nono. Anyone know for sure?

I had some cyno take hold on 2 zoa frags, and would just not go away- keeps coming back. Normally I would just treat the tank with the maracyn- but thought twice and didnt this time around.

I am trying a little experiment though w/ it, if any one is interested- check out my post in zoa forum.

[Sir Patrick]

Anyone w/ info on bacteria driven systems and antibiotics? Just want to know for sure- and not coming up with anything...

[stunreefer]

I've used Maracyn II in my QT tank that I generally add a touch of Prodibio to on occassion, but I don't ever test it so not sure effects of it on the bacteria in the water column. I would think it shouldn't be a big issue, but I wouldn't use erythromycin to rid of cyano either.

[Sir Patrick]

^Why not? Ive had great experiances with it, along with alot of others. Just never used it on a pro biotic tank...

Are the bacterias we are adding to our tanks and driving gram negative or possitive?

[ReeferRob]

Well I'm going into my 3rd week of the "Prodibio Diet" as I call it. So far Im not really noticing much of any change at all.

After first dose I did notice an improved water clarity, but have not noticed any improvement to the random patches of hair algae I have in both tanks. No noticeable improvement to skimmer production either.

I do have two new spots of cyno in the DT that is annoying the **** out of me.

I plan on continuing with the program as I feel it may still be too soon to notice anything remarkable, and hey I already paid for the stuff so why not. As long as there are no other unattractive side effects.

Any advice, suggestions or questions are always welcome!

[Sir Patrick]

Had to cut back on the MB7....



http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d87/sirpatrick1/new%20cam%20fish/Picture007-6.jpg

[Mike]

Have not seen that yet Patrick (slime). How much are you dosing now?

[ReeferRob]

Still not seeing much benefit from this plan I am on. I do have water changes and 2nd round of Bioptim to be dosed as well.

[Sir Patrick]

Mike- being new- I forgot to drop down to a maintanace dose...I was dosing 1/2 cap for a 10 gallon tank. I have dropped since then, and has quickly subsided.

[Sir Patrick]

Think I am getting the hang of this dosing now. tanks been up for 2 months, and hasnt had a water change. Been trying to get the dosing right first. I have 0 nitrates.

Double checked it at the LFS today, just in case. They tested twice- because it read 0 nitrates, and they arent used to seeing that!

[ReeferRob]

Im not noticing any benefit from the Prodibio still. HA has increased with some other types I haven't IDed yet and I have a horrible cyno outbreak in the sand. I've got one more dose tonight for the DT and then Im out. Don't think Im gonna re order any new stuff.

[Sir Patrick]

^ dont want to try the brightwell aproach?


I wouldnt quit just yet- unless you are just feeling like being done. This takes a good long time to get to possitive results.

I forgot to mention, the tank for 2 months was moved over from a tank, being dosed for 2 months also- so really I am lookin at dosing for 4 months. I just havnt done a water change on the new set up (2 months) since it was set up.

From what I have read/seen, probiotics takes a good 3 or 4 months to get possitive results. Sometimes longer.

[ReeferRob]

I don't want to have to dose anything else daily other than my alk and calc.

So far I've only seen negative effects. I might throw a few more bucks at another package but no LFS around here sells it and Im not paying shipping for a $10 item. So I don't know, probably sleep on it and see.

[stunreefer]

^Why not? Ive had great experiances with it, along with alot of others.
Sorry for dealy, just getting back on this thread...

Erythromycin is only a quick fix. It will eliminate cyano (I've used it before while maintaining other tanks for people to get the "ugly stuff" gone quick), but it doesn't eliminate the reason cyano is coming in the first place, so it will come back... eventually.


No noticeable improvement to skimmer production either.
Rob, did you get the water level in the skimmer section to be constant?

By now I would expect you to see more gunk being pulled out, especially a bit after dosing.

FWIW, I've never strictly adhered to a program or schedule for this. I just kinda toss some in here and there as I feel necessary. I watch the corals and base everything on that, but if I dose the bac portion, I follow with the other the next week. I don't remember the last time I dosed though as I had been doing lots of water changes on my QT, which I pull from my DT, and add fresh SW back to the display.

Keep in mind if your parameters are at a reasonable level, with Prodibio it's not "all important" to stay on top of your dosing regime (IMO/IME). Most people I know that run it take some time off here and there as I mentioned above. It's no snake oil, but it does (can) help ;)

[schminksbro]

I agree with Austin. I don't adhere exactly to the regimen. I watch my corals and dose as needed. The big benefit I have noticed is that I can feed heavily without fouling my water quality.

[ReeferRob]

Water quality is fine never a problem there, corals also look great. Mostly it is the cyno that is a problem (didn't have before) and HA, which if anything has increased:-|

And Austin, the skimmer chamber isn't dead nuts, but it is controlled by the Tunze Osmolator. Skimmer production has greatly improved with much darker thicker skimmate, but still this skimmer is ULTRA sensitive. If I feed, or put my hand in the tank or the ATO goes on it tweeks for a few minutes. (Super Annoying)

[Bella127]

I really like reefing the steady and easy way. Consistent water changes, grow my macro algae in the sump , dose my calc at nite time feeding and alk at morning feeding (I make my own calcium and alkalinity). Empty my skimmer once or twice a week. I have been real lazy cleaning the glass lately , but consistent water changes to me is the utmost key to to a nice healthy reef set-up.

[Bella127]

Water quality is fine never a problem there, corals also look great. Mostly it is the cyno that is a problem (didn't have before) and HA, which if anything has increased:-|

And Austin, the skimmer chamber isn't dead nuts, but it is controlled by the Tunze Osmolator. Skimmer production has greatly improved with much darker thicker skimmate, but still this skimmer is ULTRA sensitive. If I feed, or put my hand in the tank or the ATO goes on it tweeks for a few minutes. (Super Annoying)

Yeah that hair algae is no joke. It can be challenging to find the source feeding it(the Hair algae), as there can be multiple sources not just one.

[Sir Patrick]

Hows the pro-biotic crowd doing?? Everything cool? Any issues??

I have been maintanance dosing for a while now- and the brownish film went away- and the bubbles trapped into it were long gone for a long time....but now they are slowly comming back....

Think it could be because I went too long w/o a water change?? Thats what I am thinking....pretty sure waterchanges play a bigger roll in the process than I gave credit....

Any thoughts?

[ReeferRob]

I was curious of the same thing Chris. I was reading Andy's (werdlone) post last night and he said he was doing water changes every 3-4 weeks. I do 10 gallons weekly on both tanks. Am I doing to much? From a cost perspective, Im gonna go to every two weeks.
Besides that I'm still battling a touch of nuisance algea, and the edges of the glass need to be scrubbed daily. Especially at the sand line. Can't imagine what it would be like with out the Prodibio though. I have 12 fish in a 60 cube that is fed heavily!

[stunreefer]

And Austin, the skimmer chamber isn't dead nuts, but it is controlled by the Tunze Osmolator. Skimmer production has greatly improved with much darker thicker skimmate, but still this skimmer is ULTRA sensitive. If I feed, or put my hand in the tank or the ATO goes on it tweeks for a few minutes. (Super Annoying)
Glad to hear you're getting more, darker skimmate! If you could make the skimmer chamber constant you'll be even better off (I know, sometimes easier said than done).

Here's a shot of my sump:
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o285/stunreefer/Picture008.jpg

There's three baffles past the skimmer. Water dumps into the skimmer section, then under one baffle, over the middle baffle (which is at 8" and keeps skimmer section constant) and under a third baffle into the next "chamber". In this chamber is where the return pump is, along with the ATO effluent (note clear tubing) and sensor. Forgive the crappy skimmate - it was new at the time ;)



I really like reefing the steady and easy way.
I'm proly one of the laziest reefers you know :) Heavy feedings every day, rinse filter sock every few days (I use large micron nylon mesh socks), clean skimmer cup every few days. The Prodibio I use is sparingly and takes two seconds every couple weeks... BTW, I like your style ;)

Think it could be because I went too long w/o a water change?? Thats what I am thinking....pretty sure waterchanges play a bigger roll in the process than I gave credit....
Water changes will always play in big role. In a high light environment with a tight nutrient cycle water changes are what helps keep everything "in line" and helps dissipate anything that's not.


I do water changes every 3-4 weeks. I change anywhere from 20 - 40 gallons out of my ~180 gal TSV. I only clean my glass once every 10-14 days, but keep in mind my reef is very dimly lit, only 2 x 24W T5 bulbs.

[Sir Patrick]

^ Yup- I have to say my little issues was lack of water changes....but I really wanted to make sure this process was working, sooo.....

When I switched from the 10 gallon- back to the 34 cube, I transfered everything (corals fish and everything) and continued a maintance dose- and didnt change the water for 3 months. Sat back- and watched what happened.

Sure enough- I never had a mini cycle, and nitrates maintained a 0 level- the whole entire time! I even took my water for some second opinions (tests) and all came out 0 also. That little test sold me. I was a bit skeptical at first!!! Along with some people I know. Had to see it with my own eyes!

Guess its time to do my small 4 gallons every 2-3 weeks again, huh??

[Sir Patrick]

Well- I started doing water changes and now I have the stringy slimy bubbly snot growing again in my tank....I am only adding 1 drop to my 34 gallon system every 3 days, and have been adding one drop of the Vitamarin-c once a week....The light, greenish film is getting pretty thick, pretty fast on my tank glass too.

Anyone have any ideas whats going on?

[BriGuy31+]

Where is the best place to go that has a brief rundown of dosing with microbacter7 and vodka? I just want an overview of the whole process and I don't have time right now to sort through the threads on RC.

[Sir Patrick]

vodka dosing-

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php


The MB7 dosing is on the back of the bottle.

Follow the MB7 dosing instructions till you get to a low nutrient level, or a month- whichever is longer. After you reach these levels, you can start the vodka dosing.

[BriGuy31+]

Thanks, I started backwards I guess. You guys know if an online retailer is cheaper than a LFS for microbacter7?

[Sir Patrick]

Think I found the answer to my above question. Gonna give it a try-


http://www.rimlessreef.com/1/post/2010/04/sick-of-algae-and-brown-corals-give-vodka-a-shot.html


http://www.rimlessreef.com/1/post/2009/04/dinoflagellates-and-the-treament-of.html

[ReeferRob]

Got a little cyno boom going right now it the DT that is driving me nuts. Also the film on the glass is getting pretty green, a lot quicker than it used to. Couple more days tell I can do a water change....out. Did some thorough testing on the tank and found that params were a touch off. Seems Calc and Alk up take has dramatically increased in the last week.....which could be good! Working on correcting that over the next following days, and then hopefully a nice water change Saturday night. Hoping to automate dosing in the immediate future to help with stability. Over all I can complain, corals all look great from what I'm told and I have a lot of fish in there to.

[Sir Patrick]

^ Let me guess- the greenish algea on the glass is very easily wiped off? Kinda hazy?

I got the same buildup, and it built up faster and faster, then dino's broke out. Pretty sure it all started with some cyno in the begining.

Gotta say though...like the slimy green hazy stuff much deter than the old green, need a razor scrapper to get of, algea on the glass that I used to get!

[ReeferRob]

I give up on this Prodibio crapola' I've been dosing it for about 5+ months and if anything not noticing any improvements if anything, things are getting worse. I speculate my source water could be the culprit but am moving forward with MB7 as I've heard people are seeing better results.

How precise does this stuff need to be measured or should I just stick with the capfuls method?

[ReeferRob]

Well it's been 2 and half weeks I think since I started the MB7. Bought a Hanna to see phosphates were 1.12 but dropping. Noticed the sock needs to be changed every 2 instead of every 3 days now. Much thicker head on the skimmer too. Random green algae I recently acquired seems to be disappearing. Finally got my dosing pumps, hoping to get them on line this weekend.

[ReeferRob]

MB7 is no joke, noticed a dramatic decline in present algaes, HA, byropsis, red velcro and velonia. PO4 still isnt where I like it to be yet, but I did dose .1mL of vodka today. Maybe a bit soon......
Also ordered 500 mL of Warner Marine Biopellets and plan to start running them once they arrive through a TLF reactor pushed by a MJ1200.

[BriGuy31+]

MB7 is no joke, noticed a dramatic decline in present algaes, HA, byropsis, red velcro and velonia. PO4 still isnt where I like it to be yet, but I did dose .1mL of vodka today. Maybe a bit soon......
Also ordered 500 mL of Warner Marine Biopellets and plan to start running them once they arrive through a TLF reactor pushed by a MJ1200.

What is your MB7 dose? I do about 5-6 drops/day and 0.7ml/day of vodka. I seem to be getting more algae build up.

[Sir Patrick]

Is dripping kalk gonna raise my alk?? Is it going to raise it enough to cause issues with the probiotics and alk/tip burn?