Mature tank discussion

[Tom@HaslettMI]

This is a thread to discuss the joys, trials and tribulations of owning and operating a mature reef tank. For the sake of this discussion lets define "mature" as tanks that have been running for at least ten years. I want to make it clear that everyone's input is welcome whether your tank is 20 years or 20 minutes old. I'm hoping this thread can be a place to share experiences and give tips to fellow old-tank owners. Also, I think it would be nice for people to introduce their tank (or supply a link to their tank thread) in their first post.

So, I'll get things started...

Tank: 50 breeder w/20 long refugium
Age: 16 or 17 years
Style: Mixed reef
Lighting: T5HO (117 watts)
Filtration: EuroReef skimmer and passive GAC

The first issue I'd like to talk about is: decrease in biodiversity over time and what to do about it.

Over time I've had many of the small organisms (mysid shrimp, free-swimming copepods and other hitchhikers) disappear from my system. I feel many of these organisms are important components to a reef system (yet my tank appears to be doing fine w/o them). I'd like to reintroduce them to my system... I'm just not sure of the best way to go about it. Buying them in a bottle seems wrong, yet adding live sand or rock with the hope that you get some without getting aiptasia or another pest seems risky. So I'm wondering if others have experienced this, and if so what did you do about it.

Tom

[jojo22]

I guess my first question is why would buying them in a bottle be wrong??

In essence everything we buy for our tank is in a metaphorical bottle.

LR, LS, frags, fish, inverts, we add them all to accomplish a task. Why is this any different?

[schminksbro]

I would think you need to start with the question of why they die off. If the tank is healthy (which in your case it obviously is) the cryptic creatures should multiply and flourish. Why have they faded? if you are running a refugium they should continue to multiply. One good and relatively safe way to reintroduce critters such as pods would be to purchase or aquire a ball of chaeto from another tank with a thriving refugium. I don't think most of the bottled stuff will live long or propagate in your system.

[jojo22]

To this I must say there are reputable places to buy pods, I can personally attest to the products sold by oceanpods.com. I have purchased them and they multiplied in CRAZY numbers, so much in fact that I kept a mandarin happy in a 10 gallon. I kept a culture in a seperate tank and I would honestly say that the number of pods in the 5 gallon culture tank doubled every 3-4 days after they got established. So they can be bought and CAN multiply in amazing numbers.

Plus OP.com had some of THE BEST online customer service I have ever seen. I ordered my shipment in the dead of winter, and there appeared to be some die off of the pods (got a bit cold cause the stupid delivery boy put them by the garage instead of the door) I called them and a few days later an extra bottle majicly appeared on my door step, and it wasn't their fault, I also never asked for the extra bottle as it wasn't the companies fault.

So I would not be quick to dismiss this option, as I will be adding a bottle or two to every tank I put up in the future.

[schminksbro]

Thats good info JoJo. I was referring more to the over the counter stuff found in alot of LFS in this area. Not sure of the brand. Reef Nutrition maybe?
In any case a ball of chaeto will likely get you goin Tom but an order from a culture house wouldn't be a bad idea as well.


To this I must say there are reputable places to buy pods, I can personally attest to the products sold by oceanpods.com. I have purchased them and they multiplied in CRAZY numbers, so much in fact that I kept a mandarin happy in a 10 gallon. I kept a culture in a seperate tank and I would honestly say that the number of pods in the 5 gallon culture tank doubled every 3-4 days after they got established. So they can be bought and CAN multiply in amazing numbers.

Plus OP.com had some of THE BEST online customer service I have ever seen. I ordered my shipment in the dead of winter, and there appeared to be some die off of the pods (got a bit cold cause the stupid delivery boy put them by the garage instead of the door) I called them and a few days later an extra bottle majicly appeared on my door step, and it wasn't their fault, I also never asked for the extra bottle as it wasn't the companies fault.

So I would not be quick to dismiss this option, as I will be adding a bottle or two to every tank I put up in the future.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

I guess my first question is why would buying them in a bottle be wrong??

In essence everything we buy for our tank is in a metaphorical bottle.

LR, LS, frags, fish, inverts, we add them all to accomplish a task. Why is this any different?

Good point. Everything we buy is essentially in a "bottle". I just don't feel like $20 for small bottle with a few copepods (Tigger Pods) is how I want to spend my limited reef budget. If there are other, more reasonably priced, options I'd be more amenable to this method.

[jojo22]

Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about the stuff at the LFS, it is usually CRAP, the problem with the OTC stuff is the lack of gas exchange, so by the time you buy it the culture is dead. I totally agree with that.

Cheato is a time tested and proven way to introduce pods, but can also overgrow and must be pruned (which isn't really a big deal at all) if you want it to grow crazy so you can share with others try a 65K light bulb in one of those aluminum spot lights like they use on reptiles, You will have pods galore after a little bit.

[schminksbro]

If your running a fuge Tom I would just aquire some chaeto from a friend of LFS. I was looking at the site JoJo mentioned. $75 for some bugs that you can aquire for free is a little rediculous in my opinion. I would offer you some chaeto but I run probiotics and I don't have any. I am sure a local reefer can hook you up. If you do aquire some bug filled chaeto you can cultivate them in a tupperware with very little effort.

[jojo22]

Good point. Everything we buy is essentially in a "bottle". I just don't feel like $20 for small bottle with a few copepods (Tigger Pods) is how I want to spend my limited reef budget. If there are other, more reasonably priced, options I'd be more amenable to this method.

I can tell you you will get more than a few pods from Ocean pods, there are HUNDREDS in every bottle (I would venture to say even thousands if you count the little immature ones that are still growing). I would honestly say it would be your best bet. The lady that runs that company is actually a "copeopodoligist" (SP) all she does for a living is study pods, the culture business is a side gig for her, but they are strong and healthy, varying in age from ready to breed all the way to just born in the bottle.

What size is your tank? Also would setting up a culture tank and putting half the bottle in there to multiply be a viable option to you, I think I set mine up for like 12 dollars.

http://www.oceanpods.com/index.html

They may be pricy but the quality assures you are getting only pods, and no other little hitchikers.

[jojo22]

If your running a fuge Tom I would just aquire some chaeto from a friend of LFS. I was looking at the site JoJo mentioned. $75 for some bugs that you can aquire for free is a little rediculous in my opinion. I would offer you some chaeto but I run probiotics and I don't have any. I am sure a local reefer can hook you up. If you do aquire some bug filled chaeto you can cultivate them in a tupperware with very little effort.


Where did you get $75??

I ordered two bottles and my total bill was under $60 with shipping.

[schminksbro]

I had to look pretty hard to get any pricing from the site without giving my information but this is what I came across.
http://www.essentiallivefeeds.com/Prices.html

To each their own but with what I spend to maintain my tank I would rather culture wild pods. The chances of getting a serious pest from a ball of chaeto is extremely remote.


Where did you get $75??

I ordered two bottles and my total bill was under $60 with shipping.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

I would think you need to start with the question of why they die off. If the tank is healthy (which in your case it obviously is) the cryptic creatures should multiply and flourish. Why have they faded? if you are running a refugium they should continue to multiply. One good and relatively safe way to reintroduce critters such as pods would be to purchase or aquire a ball of chaeto from another tank with a thriving refugium. I don't think most of the bottled stuff will live long or propagate in your system.

In a closed system events occur that can result in a species being extirpated. In my case, many years ago I had to place a PJ cardinal in the refugium to save him from getting beat up. He proceeded to "clean out" the refugium. And if an event doesn't completely wipe them out, competition with other species can bring about their demise. In this case I blame amphipods.

I like the chaeto idea and tried it once but must not have gotten any/enough to establish a population. I also tried red gracilaria from a shop that bragged about the pods that came with the plant. But the salesperson pulled the algae out of the water and bagged it without water...I think most of the pods stayed with the water. I even told him I was buying it to re-seeding my pod population. I think the macroalgae is a good way to boost the small pods but would it be effective for mysid shrimp?

I type too slow!

[schminksbro]

I would try chaeto again but request the water.:) I would then put the pods in a tupperware or small tank add a flake or 2 of food and culture them. In a week or 2 when you have thousands, introduce them to your sump. They should take off from there. If you look around you can find live mysis. I think Kee's actually sells them. You can culture them as well. Maybe talk to Fishtal. I know he cultures rotifers for his clownfish. He may have some suggestions for you as well.



In a closed system events occur that can result in a species being extirpated. In my case, many years ago I had to place a PJ cardinal in the refugium to save him from getting beat up. He proceeded to "clean out" the refugium. And if an event doesn't completely wipe them out, competition with other species can bring about their demise. In this case I blame amphipods.

I like the chaeto idea and tried it once but must not have gotten any/enough to establish a population. I also tried red gracilaria from a shop that bragged about the pods that came with the plant. But the salesperson pulled the algae out of the water and bagged it without water...I think most of the pods stayed with the water. I even told him I was buying it to re-seeding my pod population. I think the macroalgae is a good way to boost the small pods but would it be effective for mysid shrimp?

I type too slow!

[jojo22]

I had to look pretty hard to get any pricing from the site without giving my information but this is what I came across.
http://www.essentiallivefeeds.com/Prices.html

To each their own but with what I spend to maintain my tank I would rather culture wild pods. The chances of getting a serious pest from a ball of chaeto is extremely remote.

Here is the order page from ocean pods.
http://www.oceanpods.com/order.html


$25 a bottle.

[BeakerBob]

I've found the best way to propagate pods is to gather a handful of clean used oyster or mussel shells and pile them up in a corner of the fuge. The pods will multiply like crazy and be protected from any predators that may be put into the fuge as a form of QT.

Next time anyone goes to Florida, have them pick up a bunch of shells for you. They also double as good support for frags, especially encrusting corals.

[schminksbro]

That's an great suggestion Bob. Thanks!


I've found the best way to propagate pods is to gather a handful of clean used oyster or mussel shells and pile them up in a corner of the fuge. The pods will multiply like crazy and be protected from any predators that may be put into the fuge as a form of QT.

Next time anyone goes to Florida, have them pick up a bunch of shells for you. They also double as good support for frags, especially encrusting corals.

[graphixx]

that is what I did in my fuge... made a few "pod piles"

[Tom@HaslettMI]

I've found the best way to propagate pods is to gather a handful of clean used oyster or mussel shells and pile them up in a corner of the fuge. The pods will multiply like crazy and be protected from any predators that may be put into the fuge as a form of QT.

Good suggestion. I do have rubble piled along the back side of the fuge. Which was not there when the cardinal was. Do you think that would accomplish the same thing, or would shells be better?

[jojo22]

I would think rubble would be fine. I also recall reading somewhere that stacking it to where you can move one piece and toss a few mysis shrimp in the stack is a good idea, it is espouse to keep them in that area and promote them staying and breeding.

If it works I have no idea but the theory sounds good.

[graphixx]

Good suggestion. I do have rubble piled along the back side of the fuge. Which was not there when the cardinal was. Do you think that would accomplish the same thing, or would shells be better?


that is wht I used was just some LR rubble and some old discarded hermit shells... and it worked great.

[Werdlone]

I've had great success with repopulating my pods (after a course of interceptor for red bug treatment) with just buying a bunch of cheato from the LFS. Only takes a week or two and they are everywhere again. They hide in the cheato for protection and the cheato pulls the waste out of the water...you can't lose. and its cheap. I also run a probiotic reef like schmink, so the cheato usually withers away after a month or so. by then, the pods have repopulated.

good luck!