"Reliable Reefing" - Live Reef Chat Sunday 11/15- 9-11p EST

[jimsflies]

This thread will be opened for our Live Topic Reef Chat at 9 pm EST.

To best use this forum technology, set your user options to allow you to view the maximum posts per page (40). Occasionally, you may still need to refresh your page view to catch up in the conversation. Live Topic Reef Chat will automatically update the thread as if it were a live chat as people reply to the topic.

This weeks topic is "Reliable Reefing - Beating Murphy's Law". We will talk about disasters and ways to avoid them...from simple to complex.

Our chat may include discussions about generators, battery back ups, battery powered air pumps, controllers, redundant pumps, separate circuits, on hand water, etc.

If you have had an incident with your tank, please bring it up so we can discuss it and brainstorm precautions for you and others to take to avoid having it happen again.

[Mike]

Redundancy is my best defense against mister murphy

[MizTanks]

Woot Woot I'm hear first~nananana~gonna listen now.

[igot2gats]

How do you set your user options to view 40? I can't seem to find it in user cp...

[Sir Patrick]

please xplain redundancy

[Mike]

I have the two closed loops (although I was recently a victim of low tide) that help with circulation (I dont run one of them right now) should one fail. All my ballast are seperate so I dont loose all the lights in case of failure.

[jimsflies]

How do you set your user options to view 40? I can't seem to find it in user cp...

Go to your user cp-->edit options-->somewhere about 3/4 way down is a place to indicate the # of posts per page it will show

[Mike]

I have multiple dosers as well incase one fails I always have one open to switch over to.

I have an extra dual ballast on stand by as well just in case and an extra return pump here.

[Sir Patrick]

So- multiple power sources, in case one goes out?

[Mike]

I run heaters and a chiller too in order to maintain a temp range of a few degrees.

[speedstar]

Vortech's with battery backup, powertrip invertor on hi low batteries for heaters and returns lights if needed can run one.

[jimsflies]

To get things started...Redundancy and reliability are concepts I worked with in my previous job...which was inspecting water plants. As you can imagine having the ability to continuously make water is important...as is maintaining key elements of your reef tank.

Basically, it means having a backup.

[igot2gats]

Go to your user cp-->edit options-->somewhere about 3/4 way down is a place to indicate the # of posts per page it will show

got it - thanks

[Sir Patrick]

and back up equipment in case somthing goes bad.

[Mike]

I do have the lights set up to run on different cicuits yes. The room was built with 3 20 amps to run the tank. I have an additional 15 amp on the back wall for misc use. There is an additional circulation fan on a temp/humidistat too.

[MizTanks]

Wish they made a mini doser~no wonder I dislike doing it so much.

[jimsflies]

I think to keep this somewhat structured, we should take a few examples of failures/ disasters that can happen and talk about mechanisms to prevent them.

[Sir Patrick]

I keep drip loops, and no power outlets behind the tank.

Had a fire from not doing these a few years ago- leson learned

[Mike]

There was the low tide disaster where the hose flew off the closed loop recently

[jimsflies]

Lets start with Sir Patrick's for a few...

[Mike]

I keep everything but the return pump on a GFCI.

[jimsflies]

Regarding electrical reliability...I have my tank plugged into two circuits. With pumps divided between them. That way if one should trip, I will still maintain flow.

[jimsflies]

BTW- For those following along, you want to use the quick reply box to make your replies.

[speedstar]

Regarding electrical reliability...I have my tank plugged into two circuits. With pumps divided between them. That way if one should trip, I will still maintain flow.

dont forget about that invertor that has never been hooked up ;)

[Sir Patrick]

and also keep a close eye on my skimmer box- it overflowed, and ran into my electrical

[Paulo]

Someone at this site or another was asking about GFIs they did not want to use one b/c chance of knocking out tank. I duggested using 3 or 4 seperated from circuit. I believe they are necessay but dont have any right now

[whitetiger61]

had the power go out and overflowed the fuge..thats why lil woman wont let me have a drilled tank anymore

[igot2gats]

Sir Patrick - how do plug everything in, if you have no outlets behind the tank?

[jimsflies]

Yeah, you need to have enough headboard design into your sump to not overflow when the power is out.

[Sir Patrick]

If I bump- pay no attention, its faster than refresh for me

[Rabidgoose]

Good point Jim, and a siphon break as well

[whitetiger61]

yep thats why i have HOB stuff on my system

[Sir Patrick]

My outlets are to either side of the tank, and have power strips mounted to the wall on either side of the tank, drip loops on all chords

[jimsflies]

I wouldn't say hob is 100% failsafe either. You could still spring a leak and create a mess. A proper sump design and siphon breaks (very good point Chuck) will minimize problems.

[igot2gats]

Sweet - did you install the outlets yourself? ....Just curious.....sounds like a fantastic idea for water splashing behind the tank.

[Sir Patrick]

bump.......

[whitetiger61]

lil woman says never ever again

[Sir Patrick]

didnt install my self- I have oulets every 6 ft or so around the entire house.

[jimsflies]

I think the power strips are the key. Most of us use them, you want to have them hanging on not right on the floor where water can flow straight down the cord and into them.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Sir Patrick, How do you balance aesthetics and power strips on the wall. This is something I'm dealing with at the moment.

[igot2gats]

Jim - I couldn't agree more

[Sir Patrick]

white tiger- drip loops are very inportant on HOB stuff- been there. Saltwater and electric= fire

[jimsflies]

Mine are hanging behind the tank.

[whitetiger61]

i have a drip loop system also and my power srtips are mounted to the top of the stand

[igot2gats]

This is a HUGE key for noobs - making sure powerstrips are out of the way. Cuz I know when I started, I splashed water like no other....

[igot2gats]

What are they hanging from?

[jimsflies]

Also power strips in your stand with a sump will get corroded with time and be problem. Much better to be outside away from saltwater as much as possible.

[Sir Patrick]

asthetics arent very good, best you can do is keep the chords orderly and uniform, and they arent that bad

[jimsflies]

I use screws through the holes in the ends to secure them.

[whitetiger61]

i use zip ties..velcro strapping..anything to keep wires uniform

[Tom@HaslettMI]

So does everyone use more than one power strip? Wouldn't two create redundancy?

[Sir Patrick]

mine are hung with small nails in the wall, and strips have hangers on the back that I use

[igot2gats]

Also power strips in your stand with a sump will get corroded with time and be problem. Much better to be outside away from saltwater as much as possible.

Exactly....most stands have doors, so no need to keep them inside the stand. If you don't have doors, not a big deal if your strip is behind the stand anyways.

[jimsflies]

Sounds organized. You'll have to post pics in your tank thread after the chat.

[Paulo]

Chris (sir patrick) speaks from with first had knowledge if I remember right. Bad electrical pratices bother me b/c I know the outcomes and I can do things to improve my systems. Unfortunately have been way to busy to do this.

[igot2gats]

So does everyone use more than one power strip? Wouldn't two create redundancy?

It depends on how many plugs you need plugged in, & how many outlets you have on your strip...

[jimsflies]

Good point Tom. Two would be better than one...which gets back to having them plugged into separate outlets and ideally separate circuits if possible.

[igot2gats]

It's best to not have 20 plugs jammed into 1 strip anyways - break it up

[Sir Patrick]

I use 2 power strips, and 2 seperate outlets from the wall to create redundancy (glad to know what redundancy is now, guess I have been doing it for some time and didnt know it)

[jimsflies]

You'd be far better off to use two strips and have your pumps split between the two of them in case one fails.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

But even if you only need one shouldn't we use two for the sake of redundancy. What if one fails at least all of your equipment won't go out.

[jimsflies]

Exactly Tom. That's one of the big points of the chat topic.

[Sir Patrick]

bumpppppppppp

[jimsflies]

Since we are talking about power issues. Does anyone use generators, batteries, or any other automated method of power backup?

[Rabidgoose]

on two different circuits

[Sir Patrick]

Sorry for the bumps guys- live topic doesnt work well for me, but I think I found a way to kinda keep up

[igot2gats]

Also, make sure your outlets are grounded - a huge key

[jimsflies]

Good safety point!

[Rabidgoose]

using several wall plugs isin't that redundant IMO if they are on the same circuit

[Tom@HaslettMI]

No generators or batteries. Someday hopefully. For now it is a battery operated air pump for power outages. Thankfully we don't experience many.

[Sir Patrick]

I have no back up plan for outages.......a generator is on the list, one day.

I have never had anything bad happen from power outages, knock on wood! Although, during the black out years ago, I was in between tanks

[jimsflies]

using several wall plugs isin't that redundant IMO if they are on the same circuit

No, it's not. But it is better than nothing.

[jimsflies]

At the least, in a power outage, I would suggest having battery air pumps available with batteries.

[Rabidgoose]

looking at generators but not one yet....makes me nervous every time the wind blows

[jimsflies]

You can by battery powered air pumps that will automatically kick on when the power fails. They are good peace of mind when you are on a trip.

[jimsflies]

I went for a day on a battery air pump before running an extension cord to the neighbors generator.

[Sir Patrick]

you are right rabidgoose, but if one power strip gets wet, it trips, and the other still works

[Hopkins]

I just used a large APC UPS that would run my vortech for a few days. I never had a power outage that lasted more than a couple hours.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

What's and APC UPS?

[Sir Patrick]

bump............

[jimsflies]

I have a Tripp Lite power inverter that I never used which would allow me to connect a 12v battery and run the power heads for days. Actually selling that now that I switched to VT pumps. Going to run their battery b/u.

[Hopkins]

What's and APC UPS?

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=apc+ups&cid=14602307148463525636&sa=title#p

[jimsflies]

UPS=Uninterruptable Power Supply

Basically it is a computer battery supply that allows you time to power down your computer in a power outage. But can be used to power small pumps as well.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Ah. Never heard them called that. How long would they run an low watt prop style pump?

[whitetiger61]

i have a generator..but its not hooed up yet

[Sir Patrick]

bump.............

[jimsflies]

Tom-Depends on the battery. But I think a week is not unheard of.

[Sir Patrick]

.....................

[jimsflies]

Tunze makes a connector that will allow you to run one of their pumps off a 12v battery. I can't recall the part off the top of my head...I think it is like a $30-40 part.

[jimsflies]

@Sir Patrick- I think a refresh is inevitable as the chat threads progress into different pages.

[Rabidgoose]

I am considering trading for the new Tunze for that reason

[Sir Patrick]

...........................

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Jim-The AC pumps too, or just the DC?

[whitetiger61]

refresh is definite for me on new page

[jimsflies]

Tom- It might be just the DC...was thinking about that as I typed the last response.

[Sir Patrick]

............this works well, refresh takes forever...

[jimsflies]

Does anyone else use the battery backup air pumps for power outages?

[whitetiger61]

im hooking my generator up next weekend..want it ready before the snow flies

[jimsflies]

Is that going to auto start on a power failure?

[Sir Patrick]

I probly should, but have never picked one up

[whitetiger61]

yes most definitely

[Sir Patrick]

..............

[Tom@HaslettMI]

No just a bait style 2C battery POS.

New topic...
For those with big systems (i.e. main sump with several tanks connected). do you run a single powerful pump to one tank and gravity feed the rest from there or do you run individual smaller pumps for each tank?

[Sir Patrick]

.................

[jimsflies]

Tom- You should check out DIY's going out of business sale. She may still have some of the auto start air pumps.

[Sir Patrick]

I dont have a big system, but for electricity purposes, I would go with the big pump and use gravity to feed the way down.

[Rabidgoose]

Tom....I run a single pump to a refugium that gravity feeds into DT, to a frag tank that gravity feeds back to the sump and a return to the DT

[Tom@HaslettMI]

I've been on the site recently and didn't realize she sold them. I'll have to check it out. Then convince the significant other that I neeeed one.

[jimsflies]

Tom- What the SO doesn't know won't hurt her. A piece of equipment like that can easily slip into the cabinet without anyone noticing. :secret:

[Sir Patrick]

.....................

[jimsflies]

I don't have a big system, but if I did, I would likely use one pump and gravity to the other tanks...not that it is the most reliable, but energy consumption and complexity of plumbing would come into consideration.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

This is an area where I think redundancy could be beneficial. I don't have a system that needs this but hope to someday. I got the idea from the crazy reef tank from Taiwan that has been highlighted on RC. He/she has individual Ehiem pumps for everything. I think the efficiency of the Eheim could come close to the single monster pump in some situations (though I've not done the math to prove it).

Ha-Ha Jim that's true. But to order from Deb requires a CC charge and that would not go unnoticed!

[Rabidgoose]

Actually Jim, I have found gravity to be very reliable...so far :)

[Sir Patrick]

...........

[Tom@HaslettMI]

But what about the one pump?

[jimsflies]

Agree Chuck...it's the uphill return that could be a weak link.

[jimsflies]

I think the one pump may not be too big of a deal, provided you are running other pumps/powerheads in each tank.

[jimsflies]

Have we beat up power and flow enough, we can switch gears to another system component?

[Rabidgoose]

No different for me with any return failure, a certain amount drains back in all tanks but with siphon breaks and gravity feed from top of the tank...no overflows

[jimsflies]

Chuck- I'm sure you have powerheads, etc. to maintain flow in the tanks?

[Sir Patrick]

One pump for a system is a week link for sure. additional water movment in each tank would be a must, and a back up pump would be a very nice comodity to have.

[jimsflies]

A backup return pump on the shelf would be awesome.

[Rabidgoose]

I don't rely on my return for any water flow just movement to different stages of the system

[Tom@HaslettMI]

If heating and cooling were located in the sump a single pump could be an issue.

[Paulo]

I think that we have focused on power and flow because this is what leads to most problems. Only other major problem is auto top-off

[Sir Patrick]

..........

[jimsflies]

Agree Paulo. Tom's response leads into my next area of discussion....heaters/chillers and reliability. But don't want to cut off anyone if we still want to discuss flow and power.

[Sir Patrick]

.................

[Rabidgoose]

agreed....I have 3 heaters on 3 different circuits and fans on 2 circuits



If heating and cooling were located in the sump a single pump could be an issue.

[jimsflies]

Heaters are definitely a common source of system failure.

[jimsflies]

Chuck are your heaters all in the sump or do you have them in different tanks?

[Rabidgoose]

different tanks

[Paulo]

My post did not show up. I think we focused power and flow because these areas are what leads to downfall of a lot of tanks. After my post I see the subject of heaters and I would put this up there with a major problem. If I had my way, I would design all heaters to trun off when temp exceeds 88 degrees. Falling temp take way longer than rising temp to be a problem.

[jimsflies]

Paulo I saw your post and agreed see post #127.

[Paulo]

lol. now it shows up!

[jimsflies]

Yeah, in the scope of tank disasters more tanks have boiled than froze.

(But I think it sounds like Chuck has a solid design.)

[Sir Patrick]

............

[jimsflies]

I like to run two heaters which are sized about half of what I need to maintain the tank temp. That way no one heater can overheat the tank. And if I notice the tank not maintaining it's set point, I can replace the bad heater. If the tank runs a few degrees cool for a day or two, it's not a big deal.

[Rabidgoose]

Heaters scare me the most...I have the thermostat set on the heater and also set limits on the ACjr. that they're plugged in to.

[Paulo]

I never understood why a heater can heat a tank upto 100 degrees. dumb logic

[jimsflies]

I also have my heaters plugged into a Neptune Controller. They are only set a couple degrees higher on their built in thermostats so that if they get stuck in the on position by the controller, they should not overheat the tank.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

I had a heater break in 1998 that killed all of my fish and most of my corals. The reason for failure was exposure to air. ATO's didn't exist and I slacked off...

Since then I've had an Ebo-hager (spelled wrong I'm sure) die, but it died in the off position (thankfully). And a titanium heater that never maintained a constant temp. For many years now I've been running a Trionic (misspelled I'm sure) that allegedly will die in the off position.

[jimsflies]

It's worth mentioning that the temp probe on controllers seems to be one of their weakest components. I would not rely 100% on one. Which is why a built in thermostat is still a good idea...even though those are generally crap too.

From my research the Ranco controller seems to be the best.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Man, this discussion is making me feel like I am gadget deficient!

[jimsflies]

power strips, powerheads, and heaters....come on now Tom ;)

[speedstar]

have 2 smaller heaters on seperate controllers, in event of a failure i hope i catch it before it is a large problem
Want to still do the tube 2 water heater on controller

[jimsflies]

A bit off topic but does anyone else use their water heater as a heat exchanger for their tank?

[Paulo]

I definately need to work on my bullet proofness of my systems

[jimsflies]

I do too Paulo!

[Tom@HaslettMI]

power strips, powerheads, and heaters....come on now Tom ;)

or...UPS, controllers (Ranco and AC) and generators!

[Sir Patrick]

I really like the idea of 2 1/2 pwered heaters for those of us without controlers. Worst case cenario (not including cracking and electric shock) is you will run a bit cooler till you find out the problem and fix it.

[jimsflies]

Anyone else want to discuss another equipment component?

[Paulo]

I like the idea of aquarium controller but I am not that impressed with the ones out there and I think they are overpriced. I guess that is because I was/am computer geek and think that I want something that has a dedicated computer to run 3-4 tanks. that would be sweet.

[Sir Patrick]

............

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Is simplicity a type of redundancy? If I don't have all the extra gadgets they can't fail... right?

I'm ready for a topic change... whatcha thinking Jim?

[jimsflies]

I couldn't be happier with my Neptune AC3. The new Neptune Apex could easily run several systems...without the need for a computer to be running 24/7.

Along the lines of reliability and controllers, you can build in reliability that you wouldn't normally have with a controller.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Along the lines of reliability and controllers, you can build in reliability that you wouldn't normally have with a controller.

Don't be a tease... do tell!

[jimsflies]

For example, my Tunze Osmolator (auto top off) is backed up by my controller. My top off all goes through a kalk reactor. I monitor the pH of the display tank and if it gets too high, the controller will shut off the osmolator. This prevents the top off system from failing in the on position.

[Sir Patrick]

Next subject?

[jimsflies]

Of course, I learned this after a hard lesson. :(

[Paulo]

I agree jim,
Many of these things can be accomplished without the use of a dedicated marine controller. A heater can be set to shut off internally at say 86-88 degrees. then you can set an external contoller at the temp desired. for example.

[Sir Patrick]

auto top offs have always confused me. Never really checked one out in action to figure out how they work.

[Mike]

I use a liter meter for top off. I find it to be the most reliable method I have used.

[jimsflies]

As another method of reliability, a controller can send alert emails if system parameters are not within the correct range. I believe the new Apex controller monitors current draw and can send an alert if a piece of equipment is not drawing power and is supposed to be.

[Mike]

Sorry for dropping off for a while too. Had some time alone with my wife and that is a rare commodity.

[Mike]

I am still waiting for the Profilux to be more web capable.

[jimsflies]

Not sure if that is TMI- or too little. :)

[Mike]

LOL.......WE actually got to watch flash forward together (we DVR it).

[Tom@HaslettMI]

auto top offs have always confused me. Never really checked one out in action to figure out how they work.

They are a joy. I would never go back to a tank without one. While they have some maintenance associated with them the ability to leave the tank for a day or two and not have to top off everyday is priceless.

Not sure what redundancy (other than spare parts) is necessary for them.

[jimsflies]

Bummer for you. :lol:

[Mike]

At teh last IMAC I went to Sanjay talked about uncoupling systems. That is not putting all your eggs in one basket. Instead of one big closed loop do two smaller ones for example (and that is why I did).

[jimsflies]

I think the key with the auto top off and reliability is to have a unit that uses good switches and has some safeguards built in. For example the osmolator uses an optic type sensor for the top off, but is backed up with a float switch, and is further backed up to shut off after a long period of being on.

[Mike]

He talked about keeping things simple and forgoing the exotic plumbing people do on systems. Basically the more connections you have to make with fittings the more failure points you add.

[Mike]

The osmolator sounds petty cool. I can get something like that for the Profilux but don't want to shell out the clams right now for it LOL......

[jimsflies]

Sounds like solid advice that fits in with tonight's subject.

[Paulo]

ATO are nice. I need to get one but have not. This whole subject of reliable reefing has been tough b/c I could be doing better. Those controller are nice the send a text to you if there are problems with your system. But, from what understand, they seem to be good for only 1 aquarium. thats why I look at a dedicated computer to be a controller.

[Mike]

The talk he gave was good enough that I remember it over three years later.

[jimsflies]

And you may be more reliable not to integrate 100% with the profilux. You can use the profilux to back up your existing liter meter. By using the conductivity probe and possibly pH probe to shut the top off down (or turn it on).

[Mike]

I have a lap top in the room with my aquarium. I bought it to make setting the profilux easier. That is why I am eager for them to figure out the whole web things.

[Mike]

Good point Jim. Again not throwing all the eggs in one basket. I have a sepertate ORP meter too running to shut off the OZone (I run it at a really low dose).

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Will the float switch shut the pump off? I've never tested that but it makes sense.

Mike - K.I.S.S. words to live by.

[Sir Patrick]

..........

[jimsflies]

Tom - Yes...although mine is non-functional right now :doh: Those float switches corrode and stop working...I would not want a top off that relied 100% on a single float switch.

[Mike]

I have had floats stick on me and that is why I opted for the liter meter. I set it and watch the evaporation to know if I need to go up or down. I dould add a secondary on a pump though incase the liter meter fails.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

For the sake of redundancy I feel like I should double post!

[Paulo]

Definately need 2 float switches in a ATO. Look for one that uses a "electronic" float

[Tom@HaslettMI]

But I won't!

[Rabidgoose]

That's funny That's funny

[jimsflies]

I would think that a redundant top off would only be necessary if you were going out of town and didn't have any one checking on your tank. A rare situation where you'd need two separate systems. My concern for failure is having them get stuck on and add too much top off water more than stop working and not add any.

[Mike]

There are better ones than the one I had that is for sure.

[Mike]

Tank sitters are a must!!!!!

[jimsflies]

We will have another reef chat with the main topic being preparing your tank for vacations...maybe in the spring around spring break time.

[Mike]

Good idea!!! I am going to Florida in April

[jimsflies]

As a closing on this topic and since we are talking about water, another way to beat disaster is to have saltwater on hand. Do you guys routinely have extra saltwater on hand, if so how much?

[jimsflies]

Like what percent of your water could you change right now if you had to?

[Rabidgoose]

Yes, very good point, I have a mixing tank down stairs with 80 gals. ready all the time

[Mike]

I am keeping an extra 45 gallons right now but have plans to get a 100 gallon barrel after teh Holidays.

[jimsflies]

This is an area where I am not very well prepared.

[jimsflies]

But I do have some folks I could call in a pinch.

[Rabidgoose]

Hooked up to a 3 way switch to pump up to the display.

[jojo22]

Okay, the old owner of CR had what I feel to be the perfect TO system.

He used one of the water pumps for an overflow (that you use to keep syphon.

He then ran tubing into the input on a mechanical float switch, however half way to the switch was a "T" with a tube leading back to the reservoir, when the float opened the pressure would run through it, when it closed water went through the "T" and back to the reservoir.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

I have water and I have salt. But not saltwater. No space. If I was totally stocked with RO water I could mix up 20% pretty quick.

[jimsflies]

We're gonna have to see a picture of that system Joe.

[jojo22]

yeah easier said than done.

Do you know the pump I'm talking about, used commonly on weir overflows??

[Sir Patrick]

I have 15 gallons of ro water handy at all times. Have plans on another larger barrel for ready to go saltwater. I have a close couple in case of emergency contacts available if needed.

[jimsflies]

Not sure how many folks are still following along. But we are at 11:00.

Before everyone bails, I want to let know that I'd like to get your feedback about the weekly Live Topic Reef Chat. Here is a thread I started to discuss the feature and problems you encountered:

http://www.captivereefs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5948

Live Topic is not just a Sunday feature. Any time a thread is replied to, Live Topic mode is activated for 5 minutes.

We'd prefer to use this feature for reef discussions rather than the ever-present chatbox because the discussions get saved and are helpful for future reference. The Chat Box chats are digested every day and are not available for future reference.

[jimsflies]

Thanks guys for the great chat!

[Paulo]

I usually have 20 gallons RO with lots of salt on hand. I have 4 tanks and my bother lives next door with a 55 gallon. If I ever add on to my house, I will have a dedicated room for this/frags and ect.

[jimsflies]

Having several separate systems gives redundancy, that's for sure. If one fails and you're around you can just move your livestock to the other tanks.

[jojo22]

Wow, did I kill the chat, I come in ready to rock and it's OVER??

[Sir Patrick]

Thx for another great live chat jim! Thx to everyone involved for some very cool/informative discussions!

[jimsflies]

I think a few of us are around. But we've been at it for two hours. I'm ready for a stretch...

We'll have another chat next week. Feel free to suggest topics we'll likely use them all eventually. :)

[Sir Patrick]

..........