Coral keeping moral and ethical issues

[jojo22]

Okay so something was brought up in another thread, and instead of hijacking it I thought we could start a new one.

First issues at hand

A) Is killing a coral due to over crowding immoral

B) do corals "feel" things

C) if they do where do you stand on killing and thinning the stock

My Responses

A) Nope, it's no different than cutting down a tree in your yard.

B) Nope, pain is a neurological response and corals lack a nerve system there for they do not feel

C) I don't feel that way but even if they could "feel" they still would not have a soul so killing them would not be wrong in any way.

I also would like to point out that we regularly kill things in our tanks on purpose, pest hitchhikers, aptasia, algae, all sorts of things we do not want there, so is there any difference in killing a coral that we want to cut down on??

[Tom@HaslettMI]

My responses:
A) Not immoral but cruel and mostly unnecessary IMO.

B) To some extent yes. If you irritate a polyp it reacts which means it has the ability to sense its surroundings and react. Additionally, irritating that polyp will cause the whole colony to react suggesting a central nervous system. Remember corals are animals and not plants so cutting a tree down is quite different.

C) Killing to thin back should be a last resort. Many reefers would gladly buy, trade or take most (if not all) corals off your your hands. Newbies especially.

[MizTanks]

+1 what Tom said! I couldn't say it better~so I wont even try.

[jojo22]

Tom, in response to your reply to section B, do you thing that it is a nervous system, or simply each polyp reacting to the changes in their environment, as when one closes quickly it would create a small current possibly causing the others to close as a defense from predators.

As to the response of "cruel" why is that?? Do you eat meat, wear leather, have leather in your car?? Is the fashion in which these animals are raised and killed not also cruel then??

I only ask to see others points, I am of the view that animals are animals nothing more or less. Yes I love some of them, but at the same time do not equate them to humans to the extent that most of society do today. So I'm trying to understand.

The post that brought this all up is when someone mentioned that killing corals is "cruel", and I don't get that as they have no "feelings".

Also Tom, what is your thought on something like aptasia, is it any less cruel unnessisary just because it is not pleasing to your eyes? After all they are animals just the same as the $200 coral you might see for sale.

So what is the determining factor for which deserve "humane" treatment and which do not?

[Tom@HaslettMI]

I won't claim to be an expert in coral biology and don't actually know if corals have a nervous system. But from observation I'd guess they do. The chain reaction of closing could be caused by slight currents, but wouldn't the other polyps need some type of nerve to perceive the current? I could also be a chemical released by the affected polyp, but wouldn't that chemical release and reception be a crude type of nervous system? Additional evidence I see for a nervous system is feeding in LPS and anemones. When a tentacle touches/captures food it moves to the mouth and at the same time the mouth begins to open. My fungia will actually pass food from tentacle to tentacle to get it to it's mouth. Certainly there is some internal communication taking place.

I do not eat red meat, poultry, or pork (a pig is a filthy animal). But I'm also not a strict vegetarian as I do eat responsibly harvested and aquacultured fish and seafood as well as eggs, cheese, milk, ect. My decisions for this are complex but much of it is due to how these animals are raised and killed.

On the other hand... as a scientist I understand that the essence of life is "survival of the fittest". So, for anything to live something (actually many many somethings) must die. I kill many animals both intentionally and unintentionally, directly or indirectly. Mosquitos, PE mysis, ect. If it is valuable to me (or potentially others) then killing it is a last resort. If it threatens things I value then I'm more inclined to kill it (i.e., aptasia) but will try other means first (e.g., I don't kill spiders in the house I take them outside). With corals they are valuable to someone so why kill them?

Deciding what constitutes "cruel" and what is OK to kill is up to the individual and for the most part that's how it should be. However, I wonder if Jeffrey Dahmer thought killing people was cruel? Obviously he was OK with it. I'm a bit confused by your logic... people are also animals, so how/why are we different from all other animals? Is it simply because we can communicate our feelings? Is a retracted polyp not communicating how it "feels"?

[jojo22]

My basis for why we are "above" (for lack of a better word) other animal is based on religious views, I do not believe animals (of any kind) have a soul, therefor are of much less value than a human life.

I see your point on the nervous system, but I feel they lack the complexity to feel pain, thus requires a brain to the best of my knowledge.

But at the end of the day it is a coral, and if killing it is cruel, then keeping it in a little box at our mercy, where it will most likely die in a lesser amount of time than it would in the wild could also be thought as cruel, as we are killing it to make our tank pretty, and heaven forbid a crash, all that death. I just don't see one coral as haveing more "value" in terms of life worth than another, yes I like some more, and kill nuisance pests, but as a whole they are all of equal life value IMO, which is none. I see them only in a cash value, plus the ascetic aspect.

But I also do not feel that cows, chicken or other animals have a "life" value either. They are animals they where put here for us to use as we need, and if they have to be cramped until they die to feed us so be it.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

jojo,
We simply see things differently. You are entitled to your own value system and I'm not going to try to change that. However, I can't help but comment on some of the things you've said.


My basis for why we are "above" (for lack of a better word) other animal is based on religious views, I do not believe animals (of any kind) have a soul, therefor are of much less value than a human life.
Religious views are well and good but many are not based on facts. What is a soul, how do we know what does and does not have a soul? We can't dissect a cow (or human) and remove a soul, so how can we say animals don't have a soul? I'm not denying that souls exist (i believe they do). I'm just not sure how we can definitively say that animals don't have them. What about compassion, isn't that also a part of most religious beliefs?


I see your point on the nervous system, but I feel they lack the complexity to feel pain, thus requires a brain to the best of my knowledge. Starfish don't have a brain... but they appear to feel pain. So, why not coral?


But at the end of the day it is a coral, and if killing it is cruel, then keeping it in a little box at our mercy, where it will most likely die in a lesser amount of time than it would in the wild could also be thought as cruel, as we are killing it to make our tank pretty, and heaven forbid a crash, all that death.
For me unnecessary killing is cruel. Would you swerve onto the shoulder to run over a squirrel? Keeping highly mobile pets in tiny cages is also cruel. But corals are not highly mobile animals.

Additionally, I think the average life span of a captive organism is longer than their wild counterpart. In the wild there a numerous predators, parasites and diseases that kill coral. Besides I think most hobbyists are not planning to kill a coral when they buy it.


I just don't see one coral as haveing more "value" in terms of life worth than another, yes I like some more, and kill nuisance pests, but as a whole they are all of equal life value IMO, which is none. I see them only in a cash value, plus the ascetic aspect. Aesthetic value is still value, and as you said coral has cash value... so why kill it and lose that cash?


But I also do not feel that cows, chicken or other animals have a "life" value either. They are animals they where put here for us to use as we need, and if they have to be cramped until they die to feed us so be it.
This is a troubling statement. So by this logic you're alright with dog fighting, circus animals, shark fin soup, removing coral colonies to bleach in the sun to sell to tourists, keeping a yellow tang in a 5 gallon aquarium? What are your thoughts on threatened and endangered species, should they be saved or left to fend for themselves?

Again jojo, I'm not trying to rip you or your values apart but rather present my perspective. I think were having a good discussion but it could be more interesting if we heard more peoples views on these matters.

[jojo22]

I have company coming in a bit, and I'm still getting ready, but I did see this and will reply tonight after they leave.

[Sir Patrick]

A) Is killing a coral due to over crowding immoral-

wouldnt say its immoral, but there usualy are other options. I have nothing against it, but I dont do it for the most part. I tend to think of it this way- us killing a coral in the tank is just like somthing else killing it on the wild reef.

B) do corals "feel" things-

Dont know if the "feel", but the definitly have some sort of sensory senses.

C) if they do where do you stand on killing and thinning the stock-

I have killed a problematic coral or 2, but try to frag it or get rid of it to someone else that might like it instead.

I feel the subject= to each their own. Some may kill and others may frag, while others will get rid of or give away. I lean towords the later 2, but see nothing wrong with the first option.

[MizTanks]

I've seen the mass spawning of the Great Barrier Reef on Big Blue World~if a coral has the need to procreate~where does that need come from? It has to feel something in order to do this~I don't believe it's just nerves~if there is no soul~no feelings then why would anything want to reproduce it self~

killing to *survive* at times is a must~killing for pure pleasure is to me jeopardizing ones soul~some of which seem to have no soul already~a coral will sting when threatened or hungry~what tells it to do this? What gives it the will to survive? Why would it fight to survive?

[whitetiger61]

ok i wasnt going to respond to this post as most know how i feel on this subject from the other post, but i will give y .02 worth.. I think everything on this earth has a soul..i cant prove it but thats my opinion. I do not kill anything in my tank..I set my reef up to what i wanted and if the fish or invertibratfes happen to eat hair algae or aptasia.then survrival of the fittest. just like in the wild. thats nature and i set my tanks up to replicate nature.

I have never trimmed anything back tand just tossed it in the trash can and i never will..

As far as no other animals not having a soul or just being put here for our needs..most of these animals where here before we were..just in a slightly different form.. Do i think my dog has a soul..I know he does..He has done so many thing to show his love for me and yhou cant love without a soul.

Would i defend my dog with my life..you bet i would..as he has done for me many times, but thats just me..

Rick

[whitetiger61]

Who is your God? Ted Nugent?

AMEN

Rick

[jojo22]

jojo,


This is a troubling statement. So by this logic you're alright with dog fighting, circus animals, shark fin soup, removing coral colonies to bleach in the sun to sell to tourists, keeping a yellow tang in a 5 gallon aquarium? What are your thoughts on threatened and endangered species, should they be saved or left to fend for themselves?

Again jojo, I'm not trying to rip you or your values apart but rather present my perspective. I think were having a good discussion but it could be more interesting if we heard more peoples views on these matters.

Dog fighting No, I am very anti fighting as it inflicts unnecessary pain to the animal and while I believe they have no soul they do have feelings and undue pain is wrong IMO, circus animals I do not agree with BUT who am I to tell them how to keep their animals, I wouldn't do it but it is not my choice, shark fin soup is wonderful and something I enjoy when the chance presents it's self, removing coral colonies I also do not agree with as most are protected, and to cause something to no longer exist in order to make a souvenir is wrong in my opinion, future generations would probably like to enjoy them as well, but my views are not based on it being "cruel". Endangered species I agree with helping but once again my view is for preservation for future generations, a yellow tang in a five gallon, no just because it would outgrow the tank and fish have been shown to have "feelings" so again undue stress and possible pain.

I agreed on good conversation until some juveniles hopped in and started with the slamming, I for some reason thought there could be an intellectual conversation on this board without the name calling or snide childish remarks, unfortunately I was wrong, BUT I will continue with those who have something intelligent to add.

For your other statements, I see your points and respect them, but I think you are right that we will have to agree to disagree on those issues.

As for whitetiger, no I do not believe animals have a soul, but with the childish remarks made already I would be remiss to further comment.

But to reply to you statement on your dog. My dogs would die for me, and are trained in protection to do just that they are conditioned to protect under attack to myself and them with single or multiple attackers and when those attackers have weapons including guns, they will protect to their last breath, would I die for them, **** NO. My wife and children need me a whole lot more than I need that dog, and my loyalties lye with my human family first and foremost. I also do not feel that dogs understand love, they are loyal to those who feed and spend time with them, but if sold go right on to "loving" the next owner. True "love" is not so easily broken.

[jojo22]

I NEVER said it was Gods will, reading comprehension will prove that, I simply said that I did not think in cruel, inhumane, or unethical due to my belief, LARGE difference and one that a person should know before spouting off about "Gods will". Just because something is okay does not make it Gods will, it simply means that there is nothing in my system of belief that states it is wrong to do such an action.

Opposing views and scrutiny are very different from a useless childish attempt at humor.

Also I said my religious belief, one is arrogant to assume what another's belief is, I never said God, I could have been referring to Buddah, Jahova, God, Christ, Spirtis, Spiritual Gods, or any other number of "higher powers" of religious belief. While you where correct in your obvious assumption that I am of Christian following one should not assume this type of thing.


But instead of coming to a thread only to stir the pot and try to insult people, why not think hard for thirty second and add something of substance, instead of jacking up your post count with useless dribble.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Hey now everyone! Let's all try to play nice.

If the conversation continues like this I'll kindly bow out.

[whitetiger61]

I am bowing out..everyone has their own opinions and i respect that..this thread is done for me.

Rick

[jimsflies]

Ironically, we all fall pretty much in the same lines when it comes to the ethical issue of killing one organism over the other whether you guys want to admit it or not. Arguments about souls aside, I think for the most part we'd all agree that a human life has more value than an animal...(I know there are a few people who I guess would disagree...but in the face of death, I bet many of those would swing towards valuing human life more than animals.)

As reefkeepers we make these decisions all the time. Usually we can all agree on what is a pest and what is not. And have no problem taking action to eradicate the problem. Sometimes the line isn't so clear, e.g. zoanthids running wild in a tank with no good way to frag them out.

The OP has/had a good topic worthy of discussion. I don't believe this thread was intended to be a religious discussion, although it can play into it certainly and I have no problem (at least currently) mentioning religion/god/etc. While questioning ones thought process on why they feel the way they do is okay, it is not okay to attack each other for the way they feel. I really don't want to ban all religious conversation from the board. I feel we are all mature enough to respect each other's views no matter how much or little you agree with them. So, please lets keep this on track and avoid attacks. :group_hug2:

[MizTanks]

Sorry jojo for any part I had in turning this towards religion~truly wasn't my intent~I guess using the word soul was getting off topic~I'm more interested in the nerve and no brain aspect of this topic~how can a coral breed if they don't have a brain? I also want to thank you for pointing out that I for one am just a tad bit guilty of being hypocritical~I've killed fish that were a threat to other fishes~self awareness reality check going on here!!!!

[jimsflies]

Clearly corals have some ability to act upon sensory input. They open when the lights come on, close when something touches them (self preservation), they spawn based on temperature, moon, tides, etc. I guess all this would equate to some sort of "nervous" system, albeit rudimentary. I doubt they feel pain or pleasure at least in the sense that humans do...after all we (well, must of us;)) have that big head on our shoulders for a reason.

At some point on the continuum from single celled organisms to human beings, a nervous system becomes complex enough to be called a brain. I know we have some biologists among us and maybe they can enlighten us on whether there a clear indication of where nervous system/brain lies in the scope of the animal kingdom. My guess is that we typically draw the line at vertebrates/invertebrates...Phylum Chordata? Still that doesn't necessarily mean they "feel" pain the way we do, but it means they have a central nervous system and presumably some collection of cells we'd consider a brain.

I don't think a coral "thinks" about breeding...it is simply a reaction to some stimulus that engages it to do so.

[jojo22]

Sorry jojo for any part I had in turning this towards religion~truly wasn't my intent~I guess using the word soul was getting off topic~I'm more interested in the nerve and no brain aspect of this topic~how can a coral breed if they don't have a brain? I also want to thank you for pointing out that I for one am just a tad bit guilty of being hypocritical~I've killed fish that were a threat to other fishes~self awareness reality check going on here!!!!


You didn't turn the thread wayward, but if you think about it LOTS of things we commonly accept as having no brain reproduce, many plants do, they produce pollen which is used for reproduction. What makes them do that if they have no brain, and Jim mentioned single cell organisms, what about them, they reproduce and OBVIOUSLY lack a nervous system and brain. IMO corals just do these things because it is part of growth, and growth is something that just happens, we don't use our brains to grow, so why would anything else.

And as far as closing and opening, trees do the same thing, they grow leafs and lose them seasonally for self preservation. So while corals are "animals" I think they have a lot more in common with plants than we give thought to.

[MizTanks]

Awesome explanation guys thanks~I was having my own ideas with comparing them to my house plants (of which I have many) and the light they use/need. Darker leaves can tolerate stronger light and actually thrive from it~where's lighter leaves cannot~see the connection I'm trying to make here.

[jojo22]

No, the color of a coral does not generally change it's preferred environment so the comparison is not really accurate. Unless I have gone off of your train of thought and am missing your point.

[MizTanks]

No you got my point~an I got your post link~LOL