Water Parameters-Live Reef Chat Sunday 11/29- 9-11p EST

[jimsflies]

This thread will be opened for our Live Topic Reef Chat at 9 pm EST.

Live Topic seems to work better if you set your user options to display more posts per page. To best use this forum technology, set your user options to allow you to view the maximum posts per page (40). Go to UserCP-->UserControl Panel Menu-->Edit Options-->Thread Viewing Options-->set to 40.

To get in on the conversation, you should use the quick reply option at the bottom of the thread. The posts will stream as we go. Occasionally, you may still need to manually refresh your page view to catch up in the conversation. Live Topic Reef Chat will automatically update the thread as if it were a live chat as people reply to the topic.

This weeks topic is "Water Quality Parameters". Bring your questions and we can discuss our experiences to figure out what works and what doesn't. Potential items for discussion are testing kits, frequency of testing, salt brands, etc.

[whitetiger61]

ok im here

[jimsflies]

The thread is open and ready guys...

[Sir Patrick]

Here also. Where we starting?

[whitetiger61]

ok lets discussion time

[whitetiger61]

how about salinity

[jimsflies]

Salinity...sounds like a good place to start.

[Sir Patrick]

As far as salinity goes, it seems to me to keep other parameters up, 1.025 works best for a reef tank

[jimsflies]

Where do you keep your salinity and how often do you test? what do you use to test?

[Sir Patrick]

anything lower will also mean lower parameters in fresh mixed water

[MizTanks]

1.025 is salinity? Whats the sg stand for?

[jimsflies]

I personally keep mine in the 1.024 to 1.026 range.

Jamie it stands for specific gravity

[whitetiger61]

i keep mine at 1.025 but have run it up to 1.030 for experiments

[MizTanks]

Ok, so what sg?

[jimsflies]

I honestly don't test very often for specific gravity. When I do I use a refractometer.

sg = specific gravity

[Sir Patrick]

swing arms are unreliable and have no way readjust when they get off. I have learned the lesson to use a refractometer, and adjust whenever nessasary

[whitetiger61]

at 1.030 i find corals grow very rapidly but fish cant handle that high sg

[jimsflies]

specific gravity is in relation to pure water. If sg is more than 1, it means the substance your measuring is heavier than water.

[MizTanks]

What's the importance of SG then?

[whitetiger61]

i use a refractor

[MizTanks]

Or do the 2 just go hand in hand?

[Sir Patrick]

I test before and after every water change, and whenever anything is looking out of wack

[jimsflies]

SG is important because it is a measure of the concentration of salt in your tank water.

[whitetiger61]

has anyone besides me measured seawater

[MizTanks]

Now I feel like a dang fool~I'm always saying my sg is 1.025~this is wrong right.

[jimsflies]

No, that would be correct. your specific gravity is 1.025. Specific gravity does not have units. It is a ratio of pure water to (in this case) saltwater concentration.

[Sir Patrick]

the sea water off the coast of cali I tested was 1.015 or so. Its been a while, but where I measured it was much lower than my tanks water

[jimsflies]

According to info on the internet, natrual seawater in a reef varies from 1.025-1.027.

[whitetiger61]

i measured 5 miles off san fransico and got 1.037 on 5 different tests with a refractor

[whitetiger61]

this is why i decided to do a coral growth test @ 1.030

[MizTanks]

what salt mix does everyone use?

[jimsflies]

I guess I wouldn't think it would be that different out in the ocean...could see variations if a river was nearby with lower levels.

[Sir Patrick]

My test was done just south of san fran, off mare island.

[whitetiger61]

in a 6 month test on zoas i didnt quite double my polyps with high salinity

[schminksbro]

Calibration is very important with a refractometer. NSW should be very consistent world wide with the exception of brackish areas where fresh water flows into the ocean. I keep my salinity at 1.026 or 35ppt and check it regularly. Consistency is critical.

[jimsflies]

Is that from 2 to 3 polyps, Rick? ;)

[Cash]

better late than never lol

[jimsflies]

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out reasons you guys measured very different results. I would suspect the measuring implement.

[BeakerBob]

Hey guys! Just joined the chat.

[schminksbro]

I would agree Jim.

[jimsflies]

Hi Bob and Cash!

[Sir Patrick]

I think the most important part of salinity is keeping it stable, at all times

[Cash]

How much off can a lever style be? I am using a new one but am thinking of get a refac. meter

[Sir Patrick]

not to mention the san fransico bay

[jimsflies]

Quite a bit off...enough so that it isn't much better than guessing. They tend to measure higher than it is due to small air bubbles that stick to the swing arm...at least mine did.

[schminksbro]

Swing arms are about as dependable as tasting the water and deciding it is salty.

[BeakerBob]

I've found the reason that most reefers have such varying degrees of SG is because of the lack of proper calibration of the refractometer or the use of the swing arm. Some use the hydrometer, but forget to temperature correct.

[Sir Patrick]

I think our measurments might be off because of the san fransico bay possibly??

[Cash]

Looks lke that will be my next buy. I know to check for bubbles on it

[MizTanks]

I was using a hydro for a long time and could never get a consistant reading~so I went fracto!!!

[jimsflies]

Yeah, pollution could effect sg. Not sure by that much...unless you were in an oil spill. I think you would know if if you were testing water that is that polluted.

[Sir Patrick]

Are my posts showing up for you guys???

[jimsflies]

A refractometer is not as much fun to buy as a new coral, but it is worth it to be more confident in your measurements.

[Cash]

I see them Sir

[MizTanks]

Can we talk a little about salt mixes and is there a real difference between them, as I've heard?

[jimsflies]

Yes Chris...can see them. You may need to refresh if you don't see them.

[schminksbro]

It should be noted that calibrating your refractometer once does not insure its accuracy for life.

[Cash]

Seems like every Dif. LFS prefers a different brand

[Sir Patrick]

refreshed and see them now- thx

[handlevandal]

Perhaps I've figured this out, maybe not, but I'm here and reading posts as fast as I can. I don't see anything in the chat box????????

[whitetiger61]

is my post showing up

[Cash]

I use Reef Cyrstals

[BeakerBob]

It should be noted that calibrating your refractometer once does not insure its accuracy for life.

Yes, and....you should calibrate near the SG at which you are measuring, not with RO water (unless you have a lab grade refractometer that will calibrate with a one-point calibration).

[jimsflies]

Yes, like Bob mentioned calibrating is a critical element to making sure your refractometer is working.

Chris - sometimes when the thread goes to a new page (e.g., every 40 posts) I find it necessary to refresh the page.

[whitetiger61]

i use reef crystals

[jojo22]

I have always ran at 1.026-1.027 corals grow and fish do alright

[BeakerBob]

I use IO and dose with the DIY 2-part.

[Sir Patrick]

Reefcrystals here, just because its what I got

[MizTanks]

How do u calibrate using water from you tank? Arnt ya supposed to 0 is out?

[whitetiger61]

my calibration my have been off.. i did it by the instructions though

[jimsflies]

Jackie- Yes, this is the location for the Live Topic Chat. We use the inline thread chat feature so that the chats are retained for future reference. The chat box chats are more for "lounge" or off topic conversations.

[Rabidgoose]

RC @ 1.024

[BeakerBob]

GRMAS did a good study on the different salts...maybe I can find it and have Jim post it on CR.

[jojo22]

I have always used reef crystals, after a brief but disappointing romance with IO

[BeakerBob]

How do u calibrate using water from you tank? Arnt ya supposed to 0 is out?

Use a calibration fluid set at 35ppt.

[Sir Patrick]

I calibrate offten with my calibration fluid

the different salt study would be great!

[jimsflies]

I'll see if Dejavu will post his study here on different salts.

[MizTanks]

Cali fluid????

[Cash]

How often do those need to be calibrated?

[jojo22]

Jamie it means calibration fluid, which can be purchased online

[jimsflies]

Personally I use tropic marin. I briefly switched to another brand...think it was Get Tanked salt? last spring...I don't think my tank liked it too well.

[Sir Patrick]

not sure on how often, depends on the situation- I think heat and dumping it around play a roll in it getting off balance and need recalibrating

[BeakerBob]

If you have a refractometer that cost less than, say $100, then you should calibrate (or check its calibration) every time you use it.

[jimsflies]

beakerbob might be able to hook you up with some as well for a nominal fee.

[handlevandal]

I check it every time. The fluid isn't expensive and it seems worth it.

[Sir Patrick]

Got mine for around $5

[Cash]

Ok That brings up my next question. I see them for sale around $30. Are those worth buying?

[jimsflies]

I suppose you can determine your frequency with whether or not it is off when you calibrate it. I don't calibrate mine every time, but is always on with the calibration.

[jojo22]

I think more important than what you use is consistency in such things, too many changes are bad, and quick changes in salt brands are never good either, it should be slowly switched.

[MizTanks]

Well my refractor was 45$ so I'm off

[jimsflies]

Some cheap refractometers are pretty reliable. Mine is just a cheap one had has always been accurate.

[BeakerBob]

Ok That brings up my next question. I see them for sale around $30. Are those worth buying?
Sure, as long as you calibrate it properly and check it often.

[MizTanks]

but then again everything happy and growing so I cant be too far off

[jimsflies]

Yup, I only really test my tank water salinity if I suspect a problem...i.e., corals don't look happy. Other than that I use it to test the saltwater mix for water changes.

[BeakerBob]

Tanks can have a large range in SG and still do OK. Many reefers have large swings if they do not have auto top-offs.

[handlevandal]

I've been using Oceanic salt for a long time, but I'd like to switch to RC - less expensive and available locally so there's no shipping. What's the best way to switch salts?

[BeakerBob]

I've been using Oceanic salt for a long time, but I'd like to switch to RC - less expensive and available locally so there's no shipping. What's the best way to switch salts?

Slowly :-)

[jojo22]

I honestly never used one, I found that stability was more important, I did have my water results tested against my swing arm every few months but it was always pretty darn good, like within .001

[jimsflies]

I would just start doing water changes with the new salt and overtime it will be switched. Start with 5% water change once a week or whatever frequency you normally do.

[MizTanks]

I've using RC also~yet sometimes I think I get a bad batch~difference in readings from cup to cup

[handlevandal]

Slowly - like 10 to 1 for a few changes then 10-2 etc?

[BeakerBob]

Jojo, swing arms can work very well if they are properly calibrated, cleaned and the bubbles knocked off when reading. I have to shave some plastic off my swing arm to get it calibrated right, then it worked well. Refractometer is much easier to use though.

[Sir Patrick]

My torch and toadstool always told me when my salinity was getting too high

[Cash]

Yeah since using my ATO setup my levels dont vary as much now

[MizTanks]

Now I wanna know about cal/kh/ph levels

[Sir Patrick]

toadstool wouldnt open very far, and torch tenticles looked constricted

[Cash]

Now I wanna know about cal/kh/ph levels

yeah me too lol

[MizTanks]

Cash! are you a newb too?

[handlevandal]

I had a bad experience with an ATO on the water container that got stuck and flooded my basement (through the floor) so I've been really leery about using one on the tank which is on a slab, but a carpeted slab with lots of real furniture in there.

[Cash]

yeah lol only a few months into reefing now. I was a FOWLR tank for a few years

[jojo22]

Jamie has a new reef buddy!!!

Kind of like a battle buddy in the army.

[MizTanks]

Yahooooooooo, I aint no longer alone with my all the questions!!

[handlevandal]

I always seem to have a problem with KH and pH so I want to know too

[jimsflies]

Jackie - Look into the tunze osmolator. It's expensive, but has worked flawlessly for me for like 6 years.

On to ca/alk/ph----
The ideal range is said to be 380-450 ppm calcium, 7-11 dKH alk, and pH of 8.1-8.3.

[MizTanks]

<<<<<<<just slapped jojo in da back of his head

[jojo22]

But is Ozone really needed??

[Cash]

asking questions a reading alot hear also lol

[handlevandal]

Both pH and dKH are always low and I do about 20% w/c every other week.

[jimsflies]

Joe- Not sure what you mean by ozone.

A tunze osmolator is a top off system.

[MizTanks]

why the need for dosing them if your using a decent salt mix?

[whitetiger61]

i dont use ozone

[Sir Patrick]

as jim stated-The ideal range is said to be 380-450 ppm calcium, 7-11 dKH alk, and pH of 8.1-8.3.

I beleive that as long as you are within these ranges and keep them stable, with no swings, the number you are running no longer matters- anyone disagree?

[Cash]

I have been using AquaVitro 8.4 on every water change. and my PH is staying between 8.3-8.4

[jojo22]

Jim sorry, I read that wrong, baby is playing with me as I read and type!

[BeakerBob]

why the need for dosing them if your using a decent salt mix?

If you have a lot of sps corals, they use up the calcium and carbonate to form their calcium carbonate skeleton.

[MizTanks]

My tank cal has always stayed at 400 no matter what I do~when I test new water it's at 420~my kh has always be around 10 and ph 8.4

[handlevandal]

what's aquavitro?

[jimsflies]

Salt mixes are also widely variable as to there mixture of ca/alk and pH they produce.

[Cash]

AquaVitro is a brand they sell at Seashells

[jimsflies]

I used aquavitro as well. Still had trouble keeping pH up where I wanted it.

[Cash]

I have the 8.4 for PH. Fuel for my corals.

[handlevandal]

I just picked up some SeaChem buffer and thought I'd try that.

[igot2gats]

The diff between IO, RC, & TM are so minimal to me, not a big deal either way which one you use...

BTW - I'm here :)

[MizTanks]

What's Magnesium for? And why is it making my coraline pop?

[handlevandal]

Anyone use API test for dKH?

[MizTanks]

I do Handle!

[Sir Patrick]

I do also for dkh

[handlevandal]

I notice that it takes about two drops to go from just turning to real yellow and the manual doesn't say anything about that and I wonder if I'm reading it right at when it starts to turn from blue.

[jimsflies]

@handleval I use the API for kH

[handlevandal]

it gets kind of green first

[BeakerBob]

What's Magnesium for? And why is it making my coraline pop?
Magnesium binds the CaCO3 crystals and stops them from precipitating out. It is needed for the formation of the coral skeleton.

[whitetiger61]

i use API for dkh also

[schminksbro]

I have personally seen 5 API test kits get 5 widely varying results when measuring Alk.

[whitetiger61]

ok this isnt working so well

[Sir Patrick]

I have read that as soon as the color starts to turn blue is the acurate reading. I could be wrong though

[Sir Patrick]

My api tests measured up perfect with my buddies salifert tests

[jimsflies]

Magnesium interacts with the calcium and alk balance. Magnesium allows your water to be super saturated with calcium carbonate by blocking the ability for calcium carbonate crystals to form.

[schminksbro]

If your keeping corals where your alk levels are critical I would recommend Lamotte test kits.

[handlevandal]

With their calcium test kit they mention the 'purple period' and the manual says to wait until it turns blue.

[jojo22]

That was always when i read mine, but was never really sure

[handlevandal]

Rats - I've been reading it right and my level is too low.

[jimsflies]

You still with us Rick? Try a refresh if you no longer see updates.

[igot2gats]

how often does everyone test their water params?

[schminksbro]

One API kit may be fairly accurate while another may not. I have seen 5DKH difference between 2 brand new kits testing the same water sample.

[schminksbro]

I test my alk weekly or if growth seems to slow down at all.

[whitetiger61]

im trying to be here but not having very good luck with it

[jojo22]

I always tested after each water change.

[Sir Patrick]

I test daily if I am dosing, at least till I get the doses dialed in. Other than that, I test when somthing is looking off in the tank, or when I am just curious, including right before and after a water change

[schminksbro]

Alk is the only parameter I test regularly.

[igot2gats]

glad to hear about testing before & after WCs - very crucial to ensure everything has stayed the same after you change the water.

[jimsflies]

Rick do you have your thread/post views set to the maximum in userCP-->edit options?

[handlevandal]

I test every weekend and after a w/c.

[Cash]

Before a WC and then the day after

[whitetiger61]

Jim
Its set to 40

[jojo22]

I should also note that I feel that a new tank (under 6 months old) or a tank having issues should be tested more often depending on the issue, and new tanks at lest every third day IMO

[jimsflies]

I test when I go to the LFS...I have the test kits, but it gives me an excuse to go to Preuss.

[MizTanks]

I test before a wc~then I test the new mix~if they match then I'm good to go

[schminksbro]

I also test the alk on my replacement water prior to doing a water change. I find RC will fluctuate alk levels between 11 and 15 dkh.

[jojo22]

Jim I'm telling your wife, that is if you don;t cut me a deal on that tank...LOL

[Sir Patrick]

as long as your Mg and calc are in the acepted range level, alk is most important. Keep your alk stable and calc will become stable as long as mg is where it should be.

[jimsflies]

She's already on to it Joe. :)

[jojo22]

Well there goes my leverage :(

[whitetiger61]

im having trouble posting in quick response

[schminksbro]

I agree Sir Patrick. While running a calcium reactor my levels almost never fluctuate. However when running a probiotic system alk is very critical.

[jimsflies]

I agree Chris. I really only test for Alk here at the house. If that is where I want it to be, the Ca is usually very close as well.

Rick- What browser are you using?

[whitetiger61]

internet explorer

[Sir Patrick]

whitiger- when you are having trouble, do you see a small box in lower right hand corner that says live topic, and a number of replies that keeps getting bigger?

If you do, click the highlited part of the live topic- should straiten you out

[igot2gats]

whitiger- when you are having trouble, do you see a small box in lower right hand corner that says live topic, and a number of replies that keeps getting bigger?

If you do, click the highlited part of the live topic- should straiten you out


Yeah, kinda like an update pop-up....

[jimsflies]

Rick - there's your first problem :)

Try firefox. Chris is it working better for you since you switched?

[whitetiger61]

ok gotcha Sir Patrick

[schminksbro]

I am back to IE since stripping down my machine and it doesn't work so well.

[Sir Patrick]

Firefox straitened me out, but took 2 weeks to get right for me. This is the first live chat that worked like it should. Last week didnt work right, but all of a sudden its working better than I could have hoped

[jimsflies]

It takes about 2 minutes to get Firefox and install it...well maybe 3 minutes on a windows box.;)

[Cash]

This is only 2nd Live chat and both worked fine

[jojo22]

I love FF, I'll never go back!!

[igot2gats]

Does everyone keep pre-made water ready to go? If so, where do you keep it?

[Cash]

I love FF, I'll never go back!!

Yeah I will never use IE again

[Sir Patrick]

I am working on a pre mixed water station. I have 15 gallons of ro handy at all times

[MizTanks]

I used too~but since I don't have a glass container I dont any longer~read that plastic can leach TDS into the water

[whitetiger61]

i'll download it before next chat..im battling bronchitis and not feeling so well.
not going to stayh much longer..

[igot2gats]

Yeah I will never use IE again

Same here. I absolutely HATE the clicking IE makes, & it's just not as efficient as FF, IMO.

[handlevandal]

me too, jojo22

internet exploder keeps trying to be more like ff but it just doesn't work as well

[jimsflies]

I only keep about 5 gallons which really isn't enough to have on hand in a real emerency (for a 50 gallon tank). I use the plastic jugs I get water in from the LFS. I rarely mix mine right now.

[jojo22]

Well everyone it's been fun, but I think I'm jumping out now, seems like all paramaters that are of general importance have been talked about an the tide of chat is turning. Gotta go do the wife thing (I.E. watch a movie, for all you gutter minds)

[handlevandal]

I got a 30G food grade container that seems to be working really well.

[Sir Patrick]

Later jojo

[jojo22]

Later all!

[igot2gats]

Glad you made it out, JoJo

[jimsflies]

There was a lot of talk about 6 months ago regarding plastic containers leaching phosphates into the water. I think the non-food grade ones.

[Cash]

I also use a 18g tub that has a food grade rating for mixing.

[jimsflies]

See you Joe.

Get to feeling better Rick!

[MizTanks]

Like the water jugs?

[Sir Patrick]

I really need to check my storage tank to see if its leaching on me- been meaning to check

[jimsflies]

Yes, the jugs themselves were leaching the phosphates. I think they were using a brute trash container to mix large amounts of water.

[igot2gats]

What kind of containers, Jim?

[Cash]

Since I buy my RO water and use new HD buckets. Are those buckets safe?

[MizTanks]

Never even knew there was such a thing as food grade containers.

[Cash]

LOL Miz I did not either til I read it on here

[igot2gats]

I see a lot of people who use the big trash can on wheels for their pre-mixed water. Those are pretty good to use, if you have the room....

[igot2gats]

Forgot the brand name....

[MizTanks]

shoot! I could put 3 of my tanks in one of those!

[handlevandal]

I had an issue with a Rubbermaid supposed food grade container, so got one that's USDA rated

[Rabidgoose]

I thought food grade could still leach Phospates, is that not so? I thought I read the big movement was toward *potable water* containers.

[igot2gats]

potent potables? lol....

[handlevandal]

potable water container is what this is

also says USDA food grade

[igot2gats]

Sorry...an SNL Jeopardy joke...

[jimsflies]

I think the trash container on wheels were the ones they had issues with.
Chuck, you might be correct on the potable water containers being a better bet.

[Rabidgoose]

I have a 90 gal tank downstairs with SW

[BeakerBob]

Gotta go too...chat with everyone later!

[Rabidgoose]

l8r bob....

[Sir Patrick]

later bob!

[jimsflies]

C ya Bob...

[MizTanks]

Is it not possible to us a good tap water supply without all the hype?

[igot2gats]

cya BB....nice chattin

[Sir Patrick]

I have a Q about phos and nitrates and sps (and possibly other corals) growth-

[igot2gats]

Is it not possible to us a good tap water supply without all the hype?

No matter how good the tap water is, it's just safer to use RO or RO/DI water...CYA if you know what I mean...

[MizTanks]

CYA? No clue?

[igot2gats]

cover your a$$

[jimsflies]

Yeah, you could get lucky and have perfect tap water for reefkeeping. But tap water is made to comply with the safe drinking water act, for humans not fish or corals.

[igot2gats]

When you use RO-DI water, it's one less thing you have to worry about...

[igot2gats]

and not worth the risk of the $ you put into your tank

[Sir Patrick]

My tank has looked better than ever before using ro water. Was a tap water user for many years

[whitetiger61]

what about well water

[handlevandal]

The person who got me started in the hobby had 20+ years of experience and that was one of the things he said was most important, so I've never used tap water.

[MizTanks]

A unit for my size tank seems a little much though~I was getting it from cullegen but they told me not to use their water~so I'm left treating my tap or letting it sit over night mixing

[Cash]

My tank has looked better than ever before using ro water. Was a tap water user for many years

Same here I have only been using RO for about a month now

[Rabidgoose]

Exactly! you can eliminate it as a potential cause of nutrients


When you use RO-DI water, it's one less thing you have to worry about...

[igot2gats]

Well water is just as bad, even worse than tap, IMO.

[Sir Patrick]

my father in laws well water was over 1000 tds!

[handlevandal]

when I had nanos I got the water from Meijers or one of the other grocery stores

[whitetiger61]

hgow do you figure..it doesnt have all the chemicals water treatment plant use

[MizTanks]

Aside from buying an ro/di unit~any suggestions on a water source?

[igot2gats]

Jaime - none of the LFSs sell RO water around you?

[handlevandal]

hauled it in 5 gallon jugs

[MizTanks]

We got 1 lfs and they too use our tap water.

[igot2gats]

ahhhhh...l see. I knew you didn't have much around you....was just curious.

Hmmmmmmmmm

[Sir Patrick]

well water can have very elevated irons, metals and phosphate. Somtimes extreamly high levels

[igot2gats]

How about ask for an RO-DI unit for Christmas?

[Cash]

I am using about a gallon of RO a day. I get it from Greatlakes for .35$ a gallon. Or is they are not open Sea Shells has it for .50$ RO/DI unit will be a few months for me

[jimsflies]

If that's not a red flag for a fish store!