Live Chat Probiotic Reefing 12-06-09

[schminksbro]

Live chat at 9pm tonight. The subject is probiotic reefing.

[jimsflies]

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[schminksbro]

Ok, is there anyone here who is currently running a probiotic system?

[whitetiger61]

i need to know what it is

[Mike]

I am running the Brightwell system

[Mike]

It is a system of filtration that relies on bacteria to process nutrients in the tank and then be skimmed off. It also diversifies the bacterial population in the tank

[jimsflies]

What the heck are we talking about. I'm a newbie!

[schminksbro]

Probiotics is the technique of driving bacteria through the addition of a carbon source.
The bacteria then consume nutrients and are skimmed out.

[whitetiger61]

me too Jim

[jimsflies]

So Vodka????

[Mike]

The concept behind it is to add bacteria and a carbon source to drive reproduction. As the bacteria multiply the als oconsume nitrate and phospate in order to continue to multiply. As the food source is depleted the return to previous levels and the dead ones are skimed off

[schminksbro]

Carbon sources commonly used are vodka, sugar, or vinegar. There are also a number of products commercially available.

[Mike]

Andy beat me to it

[whitetiger61]

i would assume vodka

[Mike]

What are you using now Andy?

[jimsflies]

what else is involved then?

[schminksbro]

Some commercial probiotic systems are Zeovit, Neozeo, and Prodibio

[whitetiger61]

is vit c apart of this

[schminksbro]

I am using vodka

[Mike]

Vitamin C is not part of the core system

[schminksbro]

Vit C is a carbon source but if not buffered can cause problems

[Mike]

I am dosing Vit C along with POtassium and Iron

[whitetiger61]

ok how is vodka buffered

[jimsflies]

So, you just add vodka (or something)...what else do you need to do? Sounds pretty easy so far.

[schminksbro]

Once ultra low nutrients are reached you can then add in the nutrients that you want

[whitetiger61]

i guess i need to go get some vodka and try this

[schminksbro]

It should be said that one must research these methods thouroughly prior to attempting them.

[Mike]

You need to keep and eye on Nitrates and Phosphates as well as your corals! If you lower the nutrients to fast you can have issues. I am now feeding pretty heavily and have a nice fish population because I am at ULNS levels

[schminksbro]

You can deplete your tank of O2 very easily

[jimsflies]

So to start you need nitrates of zero? Mine are around 5 ppm now.

[whitetiger61]

ok so if this takes the nutreints down i would think that nuicense algea would die off

[Mike]

No you do not need to be at 0 to start

[schminksbro]

yes algae will die off,

[jimsflies]

what about equipment...super skimmer required?

[Mike]

I am at <1.0ppm nitrate and 0.02 PO4

[schminksbro]

you need to have some PO4 and NO3 present for the system to work
You need a quality skimmer

[Mike]

I bought an alpha 300 after I started

[whitetiger61]

i have aqua remora skimmer ..is that good enough

[Mike]

What size tank

[schminksbro]

I am not familiar with that skimmer

[whitetiger61]

30gal.. its a HOB skimmer

[jimsflies]

That's a pretty small skimmer...Hang on back, right Rick?

[whitetiger61]

yeah but it works great

[schminksbro]

You need to be VERY careful with a tank that small

[schminksbro]

It can be done but you really need to understand the system prior to attempting

[Mike]

I might have had one of those at a point. Like Andy says be very careful in a small tank

[whitetiger61]

thats why im here..to try and understsand the system

[Mike]

I ran the Zeo system for a while and I think that Brightwell is easier and far more forgiving than the Zeo system.

[jimsflies]

what are the differences, Mike?

[Mike]

Getting the dosing right with Zeo required a doctorate in Biochemistry

[Sir Patrick]

Gonna be late on this one.....

Comps acting up.....bad timing too- got so many questions....been waiting for this topic!

[whitetiger61]

ok if your tank isnt having any problems..would this still benefit my tank

[schminksbro]

concentrations of the elements is greater with Zeovit

[Mike]

Straight Zeovit is harsher in my oppinion and easier to overdose. It is also more sensetive to Alkalinity IME than Brightwell. It cost more to run Zeo as well.

[schminksbro]

PB is not for everyone

[Mike]

I was not haivng problems but my corals are growing better and the colors are nice. Not pastel either like with Zeo.

[schminksbro]

It is also not a substitute for a lack of proper husbandry. This is not a shortcut

[Mike]

If anything you have to stay more on top of this.

[schminksbro]

Pastel colors are a result of starving corals

[whitetiger61]

im here to try and understand it..i probably wont use it..but i like to understand things

[Mike]

I watch my alk a lot closer now. I am not so concerned with the calcium as long as it stays around 380.

[jimsflies]

I thought the pastel colors are from lower levels of zoax in the coral tissue?

[Mike]

I shoot for a straight 8 with the alk but it drifts between 7.5-8.0

[whitetiger61]

me too Jim

[Mike]

when they are looking like that they are on the edge and you are pushing it.

[schminksbro]

That is the result of starving corals, if you don't have Zoax you don't have nutrients

[ReeferRob]

How are you guys testing the phosphates as they are typically very difficult to detect on most test kits?

[Sir Patrick]

What test kits are nesesary to use the method?

[jimsflies]

+1 rob good question!

[Mike]

The point is not to starve them. It is in one way to feed them with the dead bacteria, lower the phosphates and nitrates to lower levels to allow increased feedign of quality foods. I test with a Hanna photometer.

[schminksbro]

I pound the food to keep some nutrients available, I have friends with a hannah meter but I can observe my tank and know where I am at.

[ReeferRob]

Its rumored that Zeo has now been deluted or less potent for this reason.

[schminksbro]

That may be, I don't know

[whitetiger61]

this is very confusing

[schminksbro]

What is confusing?

[ReeferRob]

So Andy when can you come look at my tank and tell me what my phosphates are at!!!!:tongue_out:

[schminksbro]

I am very expensive!


So Andy when can you come look at my tank and tell me what my phosphates are at!!!!:tongue_out:

[Mike]

It is pretty simple in concept but requires discipline to use

[Mike]

I got my Photometer when I started running the Zeo system. It is a nice toy for sure.

[ReeferRob]

How do I quick reply so fast like you guys???


Im considering starting Probidio as it less stringent on the dosing

[Cash]

How do I quick reply so fast like you guys???


Im considering starting Probidio as it less stringent on the dosing


Type faster

[schminksbro]

A photometer isn't mandatory though

[Mike]

I dose everythign with profilux dosers to make it easier on myself.

[Rabidgoose]

So then is the dead bacteria a food source for your corals?

[ReeferRob]

Your hitting new reply every time?

Prodibio sorry

[schminksbro]

I think carbon dosing on an automated system can be very dangerous

[Mike]

Photometers are not necessary but like I said it is a nice toy :) I test every month or so.

[whitetiger61]

wouldnt the dead bacteria be an algea feast

[schminksbro]

I adjust my carbon dosing based on the appearance of my tank

[ReeferRob]

the idea of dosing weekly is more attractive than, every single day

[whitetiger61]

wouldnt the dead bacteria be an algea feast

[Sir Patrick]

so what test kits are mandatory and which are nice additions?

[schminksbro]

It isn't only dead bacteria being skimmed

[Mike]

That is where I think it makes more sense to go auto pilot with things. I actually dose less than is recommended. If things look different like they are not getting enough nutrients I do adjust the Biofuel and MB7.

[Mike]

I also dont dose all at once. The total volume to be delivered over 24 hours is divided into four doses.

[schminksbro]

You could easily deplete O2 while you are away though

[ReeferRob]

Sir normal stuff, key is watching alkalinity.

[ryeguy28]

any body see m build

[schminksbro]

consumtion varies

[Mike]

Doing it this way aides with reducing that risk. I also have a massive air pulling skimmer so I dont worry as much as I would if I did not have a skimmer tha pulled in so much air.

[schminksbro]

Is it a PB system Rye?

[ReeferRob]

You could easily deplete O2 while you are away though

Who?.............

[whitetiger61]

i dont think my skimmer is strong enough.

[ryeguy28]

no its not

i dont wanna talk about that cause im a noob to that lol

[schminksbro]

Mike..........


Who?.............

[Sir Patrick]

So- alk, po4 and no3 kits are what we need?

[ReeferRob]

I just got a new skimmer, and wow what a diff. This thing puffs like a kid I knew in college.

[Mike]

Evertything is divided in several doses adn this maintains a more steady state in terms of carbon additions. I don't shock the system with one large addition once a day. It is spread out over the day.

[schminksbro]

PO4 kits are useless. NO3, and alk are very important. Alk should be stable and at 8dkh or lower

[Rabidgoose]

It interests me in having another food source for my SPS besides poop and light

[Mike]

Unless you are using a photometer it is hard to get a reliable reading IMO.

[Sir Patrick]

and you get started with a carbon source and bacteria source till you reach ulns? correct?

[ryeguy28]

i dose phyto

[Mike]

You can even add more poop with the addition of fish.

[schminksbro]

That may be fine but it would scare the **** out of me. A equip failure could wipe out the whole system. I know I won't overdose.


Evertything is divided in several doses adn this maintains a more steady state in terms of carbon additions. I don't shock the system with one large addition once a day. It is spread out over the day.

[ryeguy28]

yeppers like a tang in a 5gal

[Mike]

That is right Patrick.

[ReeferRob]

Good read on ULNS

[schminksbro]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

[Sir Patrick]

then once you reach ulns there are other aditives to help feed the corals?

[ReeferRob]

http://www.reefbuilders.com/2009/10/29/ulns-load-detritus-ultra-nutrient-system-desert/

This is what I ment to do

[Mike]

For me it works :) and I check it all the time. I am less scared with this than with closed loops now :)

[schminksbro]

:).....................I guess

[Mike]

BUt the low tide tested ones are back and stronger than ever!

[schminksbro]

Yes Chris.....

[Mike]

As far as systems I prefer Brightwell all the way and I think it is a fine system for a new person to try.

[schminksbro]

I agree Mike

[schminksbro]

Ok well that is handled! LOL

[ReeferRob]

Sounds tested and proven positive for lots. Still I think the Prodibio way will be a bit easier as it only has to be dosed once per week. Where the others require daily sometimes multiple doses per day, right?

[Mike]

I ahve not started with Aminos and I dont know if I will. I am feeding more and using things like artic pods which the sps seem to be able to catch, rods reef, and cyclops.

[Mike]

depends on how you dose it. What your tank is doing....etc

[Mike]

some people only use the carbon sources every other day. some use less and dose daily.

[Mike]

To give you an idea I dose 8 ml of MB and 4ml of biofuel daily on a 270 gallon tank.

[schminksbro]

Personally I think you just need a carbon source and some bacteria. It doesn't really matter what brand you choose

[Mike]

this is divided into to four doses admintered every 6 hours.

[Sir Patrick]

So a large skimmer, mb7, vodka, no3 and alk testers, and an alk reading of 7-8 dkh, being held that way in the tank water and in the water change water and I am good to start?

[Mike]

Brand is a matter of personal preference and experience not to mention cost.

[schminksbro]

Wow, that is alot Mike, I dose MB7 weekly and 1ml vodka daily

[Mike]

remember things are relative :) I have alot of big fish now and they eat alot.

[ryeguy28]

who came up with the chat on probiotic reefing

[ReeferRob]

Do you notice a lot more skimmer nog when dosing?

[schminksbro]

I am not saying it is wrong. Every system is different. It is just alot more than myself thats all.


remember things are relative :) I have alot of big fish now and they eat alot.

[schminksbro]

A lot more!


Do you notice a lot more skimmer nog when dosing?

[Mike]

I wanted to clarify for those who are new to this. I know you are not dogging me :)

[Rabidgoose]

So, would you guys recommend this system for a mixed reef or is it more an SPS thing?

[Mike]

I have a whole lot more with this.

[schminksbro]

The topic is different every week. Some will apply to you others will not.


who came up with the chat on probiotic reefing

[ryeguy28]

im running just sps in my pico

[Mike]

I have echinos, acropora and montipora in my tank.

[schminksbro]

Most people using it are SPS guys but it is ok for mixed as well.

[Sir Patrick]

comps about to mess up-

One more question-

Could someone explain in lamens terms how the dosing from start to ulns goes??

Be back shortly I hope....

[ReeferRob]

Are you guys running any GFO reactors on this?

[Mike]

I am softy free in my tank.

[schminksbro]

SPS are just more sensitive to nutrients so more guys are seeking a way to maintain low levels. Zoas will grow in a mud puddle.:)

[Mike]

Just carbon here but I also use the zeolith stones. change 25% of the stones every 6 weeks

[schminksbro]

No GFO here. Saves me cash

[Mike]

yes they prefer mud :)

[schminksbro]

Same here.


Just carbon here but I also use the zeolith stones. change 25% of the stones every 6 weeks

[Mike]

I have not needed GFO and in fact I think that it shocks the tank more than this system does.

[Mike]

How long have you been on the stones?

[ryeguy28]

the hard thing for me is is that im also haveing a clam
so feedings must be direct into the clam

[ReeferRob]

The stones are just a place for the bacteria to grow right? And you shake them everyday to release the bacteria?

[schminksbro]

Chris, essentially you start with bacteria. Once you get the bac levels up you start feeding it a carbon source. All the while you monitor you nutrients. When they drop you move to a maintanance dose.

[Rabidgoose]

How is it a DSB can be detrimental? Would I need to take it off-line with this system?

[ReeferRob]

Rye I have 3 or 4 clams?? Anyway now I think about it never heard either way on bac driven and clams??

[Mike]

you can make a feeding bell to fed the clam. It is easy to do with a 2 liter bottle and a nylon hose.

[schminksbro]

You can run the system with a DSB it just isn't needed.

[ryeguy28]

so if i just direct feed i shouldnt have the problems with to much nutreints

[schminksbro]

The stones have been proven to absorb ammonia in fresh water. It isn't proven whether they do the same in SW or not but that may be the case.

[Mike]

It will increase the chances of getting the food to the intended animal without it being bothered by crabs and fish. This will decrease the stress to the animal and increase intake over all and decrease waste.

[schminksbro]

No, quite the opposite.:)


so if i just direct feed i shouldnt have the problems with to much nutreints

[schminksbro]

Look at the clam in the TOTM this month. That is a PB system.

[Mike]

tp clarify to this is in deference to things like clams, elegance, euphyllia, Brazo, etc

[schminksbro]

???????????Please elaborate???????????


tp clarify to this is in deference to things like clams, elegance, euphyllia, Brazo, etc

[Mike]

insofar as directly feeding the animal. If you use a feeding bell it ensure the animal freedom from fish, crabs, ect while it consume the target fed food.

[ReeferRob]

I heard DSBs can be counter productive.

[Mike]

but this is another topic :)

[Mike]

I have a SSB in my tank without issues. I have not had a DSB in a while.

[schminksbro]

I have a DSB in my sump. Hasn't presented any problems so far.

[jimsflies]

I'm going to have to look into this more. Maybe I will try to run it on the new tank. I'm thinking I want more sps and a heavier bioload than I am running now.

[whitetiger61]

wouldnt the dead bacteria be an algea feast

[Sir Patrick]

Dont think it would be as long as its efectively skimmed out

[Sir Patrick]

Looking forward to running a pro biotic system. I am tired of starving my fish in order to keep nutrients under control

[jimsflies]

I appreciate Andy and Mike taking time to do the chat tonight. I'm sure we will revisit this topic in the future.

[Sir Patrick]

thx for all the info guys!