Sumps, Refugiums, QTs -Live Reef Chat Sunday 12/13- 9-10p EST

[jimsflies]

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This weeks topic is "Sumps and Refugiums...and Quaranteen Tanks". Bring your questions and we can discuss our experiences to figure out what works and what doesn't including design considerations, operational issues, etc.

[whitetiger61]

ok im here for chat

[jimsflies]

Let me start out with the first question...in regards to sumps and fuges, what was your primary design consideration?

[whitetiger61]

when i get a bigger tank i will run a sump with dual drain and and external return pump

[jimsflies]

For my current tank, the main consideration was space with my small tank size, I needed to fit everything in the stand.

[whitetiger61]

3 chamber sump

[whitetiger61]

i want to go with the biggest sump i can get so i will design my stand and display around my sump

[jimsflies]

That's probably a good way to do it. So your sump is going to be in the stand?

[whitetiger61]

the little woman said one day i will get to use a sump system again after the accident we had didnt think she would let me have one again

[whitetiger61]

yes it will be in the stand

[jimsflies]

No matter what the size tank, it always seems like a tight fit to get everything in the stand.

[jimsflies]

My next system will likely have the sump in the basement.

[whitetiger61]

that is very true..

[whitetiger61]

my tanks are already in the basement

[jimsflies]

I think the most important design element of a sump is having enough free-board to accommodate the water drop in your display without overflowing.

Rick...you need to dig a second basement under your basement for the sump. :)

[TM01]

basment sumps also allow the most flexablity

[whitetiger61]

lol yeah thats what happened to me had a overflow issue..which led to an electrical issue

[jimsflies]

Yeah, Todd's basement sump is very configurable I have seen it 3-4 times now and each time it is plumbed a little differently.

[whitetiger61]

hi TM01 glad you could make it

[TM01]

Thanks! Glad to be here finally

[jimsflies]

You need to have the sizing figured out and be sure there is no way a siphon can form so that you will never have an overflow from your sump onto the floor.

[whitetiger61]

yeah this time the plumbing design will be different

[whitetiger61]

i know what i did wrong and wont make that mistake again

[jimsflies]

What happened, did you have a siphon form?

[whitetiger61]

i had a straight drain pipe from the bottom of the tank with a stand off pipe and didnt allow for power outages..that was my first split system and it just wasnt plumbed right

[whitetiger61]

i didnt even 90 it at the top

[jimsflies]

Not sure I completely understand, was the drain inside an overflow?

[Werdlone]

A good check valve is always a good investment. I put one on my frag tank return line and it works great. Never have to worry about a siphon. I've had issues in the past with algae growing over the anti-siphon hole and a little overflow.....Wish I put them on my display.

[whitetiger61]

i didnt have an overflow..if was just a straight standoff pipe the tank was drilled in the bottom

[Werdlone]

did the drain line leak thru the bottom tank fitting? it usually stops when it goes below the standpipe???

[whitetiger61]

no i had a power outage and there was to much water in the sump to handle the water draining from the display

[jimsflies]

Andy- I would not rely on a check valve. Anything mechanical, will eventually fail. You want to have a siphon break (air gap). I used to inspect drinking water plants and we would never accept a check-valve to prevent siphons. With the "biological" nature over our tanks, a check valve can easily become fouled and not seat properly. A check valve could be a good backup...sort of like belt and suspenders.

[Werdlone]

Oh...OK, I understand now. Thats where that figuring out the water level in the sump comes in. I just ended up using a rubbermaid stock tank 100gal and filling half way. I know I have plenty of room. I didn't want to test or do the math.

[jimsflies]

A good way to test if your sump can handle a power outage is to turn off the pump...better to know that before all the other headaches of a power outage. Of course, it's best to design it in right up front.

[whitetiger61]

yeah thats why this one is drawin out on paper it was my first one

[jimsflies]

Basically the math is length x width x drop of water (in inches) divided by 231 will give you gallons. Then you do the same for both the sump and display and compare to make sure you have enough free board in the sump (i.e. the sump has more available than the display will drop).

[Werdlone]

I have a clear weir check valve that I can take apart and clean. I clean it every month or so..but know what you are saying Jim. My return to the frag tank is on the end of the tank at the bottom half. I don't know how to make a siphon hole without changing the height of the return.

[jimsflies]

You should be able to drill a small hole in the bottom of the return or the side just below normal water level...that will break the siphon.

[whitetiger61]

ok now im confused

[jimsflies]

I drilled a small hole, tapped it for a screw in fitting to connect a piece of black tube. I then ran the tube inside my overflow. That keeps the salt spray from occuring. A small amount of return does go directly into the drain and once in a while I make sure it isn't plugged with algae (black also keeps algae from growing in it).

[jimsflies]

I have a pic somewhere...I will post if I can find it.

[whitetiger61]

col maybe that will help me understand it

[jimsflies]

Basically what I'm talking about is lets say your wier for your overflow is an inch below the surface of your tank. So when the pump turns off, your water will drain down 1-inch...you calculate that volume and that is what you want in your sump for free board.

But then, lets say your return line goes into the tank 5-inches below the water surface because you want to point it at that sweet acro in the corner. Now the power goes off...not only will you lose the inch to the bottom of your wier, you will also have a siphon until the return line starts to suck air...now you just lost 5-inches over water out your display.

So besides having a flood on the floor, you also have a bunch of corals exposed to air until the power comes on. Of course when the power comes on, there is no longer enough water in the tank to cover the corals...so they are dead. To make matters worse, your sump pumps dry...your top off kicks in and you lowers the salinity in the whole tank. Now everything else is dead. Or, the top off runs out but the sump runs dry and the pump overheats and dies and the heater kicks on and melts everything around it (and if your lucky doesn't start a fire).

[whitetiger61]

everyone still here

[jimsflies]

To prevent that siphon you need to have a siphon break or air gap that will form when the water level drops below that point. Usually a hole drilled in the return line right below the normal water surface will do that. A properly designed overflow should never allow more water than would normally drain into the sump...ie a siphon break keeps any extra water from going into the sump. Then a properly designed sump will be able to handle enough water volume to allow the display tank to drain to the bottom of the overflow weir.

[whitetiger61]

wow glad it didnt get that bad for me..i had some power strips toasted but the gfi shut down..of course about the same time i realized i had a flood and was debating on what to clean up first the power comes back on and power strips fry

[jimsflies]

Well imagine if it happened while you were on vacation or out of town....I'm sure it would have been worse.

[whitetiger61]

oh i know it could have been alot worse..im just glad i had a gfi put in

[jimsflies]

GFI's are good for safety that's for sure. However, they can be a weak link if they trip which would prevent your system from coming back on. Just something to keep in mind...I have at least one powerhead not plugged into a gfi circuit.

[whitetiger61]

thats a good idea..never thought of that

[jimsflies]

For kicks here is a picture of my sump...somewhere I have the original design submitted to the acrylic fabircator. But here it is when I got it, plastic still on:

http://www.jimsflies.com/reeftank/sump_flow.jpg

I had pages of calculations and dimensions of equipment like skimmers, heaters, and pumps to make sure everything would fit correctly.

[TM01]

I think Im going to double check my siphon breaks tonight...lol

[jimsflies]

I should have looked when I was there Todd. It's the simplest thing that can really cause an entire system to crash...not to mention cause disharmony with your significant other. :crazy:

[jimsflies]

Here is picture of my sump in action:

http://www.jimsflies.com/reeftank/2009-03-22_sump.jpg

[jimsflies]

The above picture was taken with the pump off...notice the macro out of water in the fuge. But also notice that there is a lot of free board still remaining in the center area of the sump where the return pump sits.

[whitetiger61]

nice..im ready to have a big system again

[jimsflies]

Not sure who all is following along...we sort of got stuck on the basic volume concept of sumps. Is there anything else you guys want to discuss tonight?

[whitetiger61]

ok i understand the freeboard stuff now

[whitetiger61]

nope im good i need to go back to my sketches and re figure some things..and now work comes early tomorrow so its bedtime for me..this was very informative

[jimsflies]

I think I might have beat that one up....:deadhorse3:

[whitetiger61]

no you did a great job

[TM01]

Im good..this was pretty cool Jim...Im glad I followed along.

[whitetiger61]

have a great night everyone

[jimsflies]

Cool...glad I could help. I think our chats might be better at the 1 hour instead of 2 hours. 2 hours ends up feeling too long.

Have a good evening...might play a little poker now. :)

[jimsflies]

Cool...glad I could help. I think our chats might be better at the 1 hour instead of 2 hours. 2 hours ends up feeling too long.

Have a good evening...might play a little poker now. :)

[TM01]

Night all!

[jimsflies]

Good night guys!

[whitetiger61]

chat was very informative last night i learned alot..thanks Jim


Rick

[Steven Pro]

Bummer, I missed it.

[Sir Patrick]

I missed it also- had to work my normal night off...

Too bad to. I have a rather unusual sump planned. I have no need for a refugium and plan on running a frag area in it instead.