too much food???

[whitedove359]

Please look at my previoius post to get a better understanding of where I am comeing from.


I understand that feeding fish less , is better than feeding them more. However, I am begining to realise that you have to feed Corals and anenomes as well...And then there is all this talk about "keeping your water perameters perfect" (obviously thats a dream that most people want for their tanks). However, Then i also read, only do a 10-20% water change per week. IF even that much... isent feeding everything going to be "over feeding" if you got to feed every animal every day?!??! how do people keep there tank clean...too much food makes bad water quality-->dead fish--->dead corals---> algea outbreak!!!! AT least thats what it is in the freshwater world...


with a freshwater tank, I did 50% water changes everyweek...maybe twice a week...to keep the plant fertilizers and nutritets in check and keep the water quality up...so, since you are doing a simular thing, by adding so much stuff to the water (food instead of fertilisers) why would you NOT want to do a 50% water change weekly , like a freshwater tank??

how do you keep good water quality?


also...why do reef and saltwater tanks always look more crystal clear than a freshwater tank? ALWAYS, you put any reef next to any freshwater, and I guarintee you the reef will look cleaner and nicer...Does that have to do with properties of the Salinity in the water?

[Manoj's Reef]

1. You don't have to feed your corals, corals are filter feeders, they draw nutrients from water. Just feed your fish and you should be fine.

2. Anemone is an invert and you need to feed it one a week/two weeks.

3. The biological ( rocks+sand) filtration in combination with efficient skimmer keeps your water clean

4. The 10-20% water change does more than provide fresh water, it provides trace nutrients and also helps balance chemistry

5. Large water changes can be done in reef aquarium when required. Eg: Chemistry problems, infection, ammonia spikes etc. Associated with large water changes are large change in parameters thats why not recommended.

6. Keeping water quality good is a combination of a mature system, good skimmer and good tank husbandry

7. Fresh and salt water both can have clear water.

8. Its my understanding that you are just getting into the salt water hobby, it always helps if you read first before buying equipments and livestock.

9. On the internet there is lots of knowledge so spend time and read a lot also ask simple questions and lots of people will help you

I hope it helps!!!

[XSiVE]

Please look at my previoius post to get a better understanding of where I am comeing from.


I understand that feeding fish less , is better than feeding them more. However, I am begining to realise that you have to feed Corals and anenomes as well...And then there is all this talk about "keeping your water perameters perfect" (obviously thats a dream that most people want for their tanks). However, Then i also read, only do a 10-20% water change per week. IF even that much... isent feeding everything going to be "over feeding" if you got to feed every animal every day?!??! how do people keep there tank clean...too much food makes bad water quality-->dead fish--->dead corals---> algea outbreak!!!! AT least thats what it is in the freshwater world...

with a freshwater tank, I did 50% water changes everyweek...maybe twice a week...to keep the plant fertilizers and nutritets in check and keep the water quality up...so, since you are doing a simular thing, by adding so much stuff to the water (food instead of fertilisers) why would you NOT want to do a 50% water change weekly , like a freshwater tank??

how do you keep good water quality?

Well, There's something we have the ability to do in salt water which is basically impossible in fresh water: protein skimming. There is so much nutrient export via the skimmer it makes water changes much less in volume, especially compared to a planted tank. When I was running my 55g fish only, with live rock, I did not have a skimmer and my levels were all over the place, as soon as I got a skimmer, the amount of bad stuff in the tank dropped significantly. (I assume this was because the beneficial bacteria could now keep up with the lower nutrient levels)





also...why do reef and saltwater tanks always look more crystal clear than a freshwater tank? ALWAYS, you put any reef next to any freshwater, and I guarintee you the reef will look cleaner and nicer...Does that have to do with properties of the Salinity in the water?

Salt water refracts light differently than fresh water, also as you probably know the pH is typically higher as well 8.0 - 8.4. Many reefs have significantly more water movement than in most freshwater tanks.. could this have something to do with it? maybe. It could be the nutrient export from skimming as well. maybe someone else can chime in.

Chemistry, water movement, filtration can all play some role in water clarity.

[adalius]

I think the clarity, in part, has to do with the tannins and similar organics being leeched into freshwater, which isn't very often experienced in a reef tank, although there is gelbstoff (sp?) which is basically yellowing of the water.

Edit: Also see the above posts, I think there's alot of good points, including the skimming! That's a huge reduction of gunk in the water.

As for the feeding, I was actually thinking of starting a thread on here that has people post what they have in their tank, what they feed, and how often they feed, because when reading I often see 'feed twice a day' and then see in forums that a lot feed things twice a week. Feeding twice a day with a single sinking granule might amount to the same as feeding a frozen cube twice a week in bioload, but it's this lack of specific details that make any 'feed this many times' claims pointless.

Maybe a thread that has a little input like:
Total Tank Volume (Inc. Sumps/Fuges):
Number of Fish:
Number of Inverts (detritus feeders):
Number of Inverts (focused feeding):
Items Fed (Frozen Spirulina/Flake/etc) x Amount (grams/oz's/etc) x Schedule (daily/weekly/biweekly/etc)

I think that would be more beneficial to alot of people than people simply saying 'I feed my tank twice a month'.

[bigbill]

as to the feeding i feed my fish small amounts 2 times a day and i feed my corals every other day to keep the waste down with the corals its a target feeding with a turky baster so there is little our no food going in to the water when feeding coral

[cg5071]

you should/could start a thread like that. though i will never get, "i only feed my tank every 3 days"?

i actually feed 3 x's a day most days. no life i know :) i dont feed alot or all the foods at once those 3 x's. i kind of rotate the different fishes favorite foods. some dont like one thing while others something else or some like it all! so if a fish misses a meal because he doesnt want something,lol it is his own fault. unless it is a dedicated feeder or something like my baby cardinals. i am mixing other foods with their brine to get them off it hopefully soon.

i feed mysis every 2-3 days for certain corals(usually before bed) and the fish grab some of that, i feed the other stuff lighter those nights. otherwise i feed pellets, flakes and pieces, cyclopeeze, enriched or baby brine shrimp because of the baby cardinals and phytoplankton at different times to get them all fed.

[shovelhead91701]

Anyone in this hobby can tell you horror stories about when they got into this hobby..... ALL OF US has bought something that was totally unnecessary or was a poor fit with the rest of our equipment/and or livestock. The best advice that you can take in this hobby to avoid discouragement or dissapointment is to read these forums and always ask any question you have before a purchase. Everyone will be more than glad to help and most of the time the people who do not know what you ask will not post anyways for fear of leading you in the wrong direction!

[whitedove359]

Thanks lol. Thtas why I am asking qustions! SO AM i all set to go then? to start cycling the tank? I have the SWC 200 Protein Skimmer...

Do i want to add a refgium, baserock and liverock at the same time? whats the difernce between the two?

[adalius]

A refugium can be added now or later. If you aren't using live sand in it, I'd probably start it with the main tank, but that's just my opinion.

The difference between live rock and base rock is whether it's biologically active. Most base rock is dead rock. You can add both at the same time. Just bear in mind that live rock requires the water chemistry to be roughly similar to your end goal in that it needs the basics like salinity, temperature, and pH. It doesn't have to be perfect but the closer you start the better the results. You can, while setting the tank up, ignore ammonia/nitrite/nitrate readings for at least a couple days.

If you aren't putting any actual critters in the tank right away (aside from those on the liverock) you can also boost your cycle time by putting a small amount of household ammonia in. Not alot, just a little. I used about 4-5 small capfuls in my 30 gallon. You're basically using that to provide extra food for the bacterial culture so they grow a little faster. Some people frown on this method, but done carefully, it's worked for me numerous times.

[whitedove359]

why do people frown on that?

[whitedove359]

could I just use seachem stability?

[adalius]

Some frown on it because they feel the direct dosing of ammonia can cause something akin to a bacterial bloom which then crashes later on causing another mini cycle. I haven't experienced this myself. You could use Seachem Stability, I personally just find it's cheaper and almost-but-not-quite as fast to just dose a little ammonia and wait.

I've also read a lot of mixed results on bacteria in a bottle, regardless of brand. Some people swear by it, others see no measurable results. It's sort of a crap shoot, but there's isn't, that I've seen anyway, any readily available solid scientific study to back up or denounce its use.

[tazzy695]

one more thing to lean on the side of caution for the dosing of house hold ammonia is to make sure you are using ammonia without anything else added to it like sent and what not

an easy way to do the same thing is simply add a little fish food or a dead shrimp once a week as if you had fish in the tank

keep in mind this just gets the nitrifying bacteria started and dose not allow you to add a full stock list at once

[adalius]

make sure you are using ammonia without anything else added to it like sent

Excellent point, and one I should have remembered to mention. I use basic store-brand ammonia, unscented, unadulterated. The only thing they do to it before bottling it is add distilled water to dilute it.

Adding food/dead shrimp/etc works well too, it adds about 2-3 days on an overall cycle, in my experience, just because you have to wait for it to actually start decomposing and releasing the ammonia, but it's a perfectly fine method.

And as Tazzy pointed out, even when your cycle is done, slowly add things (unless they need to be added in groups due to territorality/aggresiveness) so you don't overburden your bioload and cause a secondary cycle.

[XSiVE]

There are a lot of little tricks to help you start cycling faster, Im not sure if you are the patient type or not but I think that there's one big thing that hasnt been said here...

patience, time, and "doing it right"

Just like in life, using a shortcut in a reef whether it's to save time or to save money, has a chance to bite you later on.

If you're starting with dry rock, dry sand, etc you might want to take the long route and do as tazzy and adalius said with a little bit of food every few days.. personally I would start mostly dry, do the food method and add a few pieces of live rock to what you've got or maybe a bit of live sand from an established tank, both of these can help boost the bacterial population.

[whitedove359]

Okay. Yea, i would rather not do the ammonia because I dont want to screw things up... lol

How much would it cost to set up a refugium in the sump? what kind of light do I need for that, just your ordinary shop light, or does it have to be a plant light?

[tazzy695]

the biggest cost for a fuge would be the return pump in all honesty

the light most people I know just use a standard clamp on style shop work light with a 6500k plant life bulb

other then that you just need to silicone a couple of baffles into a tank to act as a bubble trap before the return chamber

[whitedove359]

oh wow so its cheep. Im planing on keeping the fuge in my sump...

[jolson10450]

yeah i vote for a fuge as well. it reduces a lot. if you are still worried about it get some microbacter 7. itll turn your nitrates and phosphates almost to 0. a buddy of mine grew thick algae on his glass everyday due to excessive feeding and he did mb7 for 2 days and it hasnt came back since because the bacteria introduced with it are eating up all of the nitrates and phosphates the algae used to grow.

[adalius]

Fuge's can be super. I'd have one now if I can just decide how I want to set it up.