Vote on VODKA (and tell me pros and cons)

[Heidi]

So any more votes? comments?? crickets . . . crickets . ..

[creefer]

Lots of crickets......

I think SirPatrick is correct though. Carbon and bacteria dosing should go hand in hand.

[jolson10450]

the vodka is a fuel for my tank, the bacteria feed off of it and reproduce to at a rate enough to where they can wipe out all of my nitrates and phosphates that would get added to my tank.

summed up i do it to keep my nitrates and phosphates at zero, i see positive results in the color of all of my coral since then so i am very happy since i started doing it.

i dose it with MB7 for reference.

[creefer]

the vodka is a fuel for my tank, the bacteria feed off of it and reproduce to at a rate enough to where they can wipe out all of my nitrates and phosphates that would get added to my tank.

summed up i do it to keep my nitrates and phosphates at zero, i see positive results in the color of all of my coral since then so i am very happy since i started doing it.

i dose it with MB7 for reference.

Specifics?? tank size and dosage schedule??

[CalmSeasQuest]

While I don't dose Vodka, I do include Vinegar in my Kalk/ATO, which has the same effect of providing a carbon source. If you are using Kalk (Kalkwasser, Calcium Hydroxide, Limewater), vinegar provides additional benefits over vodka (or any other carbon source) namely,

• More Calcium ions - Because you are dissolving the Kalk in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate.
  
• The Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating (the white Calcium Carbonate "sludge" left at the bottom of your Kalk dosing container.)
  
• The remaining Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar provides free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank, converting more Nitrates to NO2 gas .

For reference, I currently use 10ml per of vinegar per gallon of top-off water. A peristaltic pump pushes the vinegar laden water though a Tunze Kalk dispenser that is located in a 7 gallon bucket that serves as ATO storage. In concert with the carbon dosing, I dose 10ml per week of MB-7 in a system of about 50 gallons (This strategy depends heavily on aggressive skimming.)

Slow and steady wins the race
I learned the hard way how critical it is to go very slowly when starting/adjusting Carbon dosing. Too much, too fast can wreak havoc. I just won a month long battle with a very nasty Cyano and hair algae outbreak caused by a too-rapid increase in carbon (fuel.)

When done correctly, it works. I am zero phosphates (Hanna Colorimeter), zero nitrates (ATI), more importantly, what little algae remains is whitening and disappearing

Both Craig Bingman and Randy Holmes-Farley have written wonderful articles on the benefits of combining Vinegar with Kalk. Anyone considering carbon dosing might wish to read both.

[Heidi]

Do you think you could use this method w/o adding the MB-7. In my thread I had said I had started "experimenting" with my little tank. Currently dosing vodka and doing the limewater in my top offs. I do not currently add any MB7 I was just hoping that the bacteria already in my system would be sufficient to sustain this whole little experiment. Do you feel you need to add the MB because you are not using vodka, or is it IYO how you should go about it with any carbon dosing method? What are other peoples takes on this I see a lot of you also dose MB7 who doesn't?? Anyone?? What are the benefits in dosing both and what are the risks if any of only doing vodka or vinegar or whatever?

While I don't dose Vodka, I do include Vinegar in my Kalk/ATO, which has the same effect of providing a carbon source. If you are using Kalk (Kalkwasser, Calcium Hydroxide, Limewater), vinegar provides additional benefits over vodka (or any other carbon source) namely,

• More Calcium ions - Because you are dissolving the Kalk in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate.
  
• The Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating (the white Calcium Carbonate "sludge" left at the bottom of your Kalk dosing container.)
  
• The remaining Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar provides free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank, converting more Nitrates to NO2 gas .

For reference, I currently use 10ml per of vinegar per gallon of top-off water. A peristaltic pump pushes the vinegar laden water though a Tunze Kalk dispenser that is located in a 7 gallon bucket that serves as ATO storage. In concert with the carbon dosing, I dose 10ml per week of MB-7 in a system of about 50 gallons (This strategy depends heavily on aggressive skimming.)

Slow and steady wins the race
I learned the hard way how critical it is to go very slowly when starting/adjusting Carbon dosing. Too much, too fast can wreak havoc. I just won a month long battle with a very nasty Cyano and hair algae outbreak caused by a too-rapid increase in carbon (fuel.)

When done correctly, it works. I am zero phosphates (Hanna Colorimeter), zero nitrates (ATI), more importantly, what little algae remains is whitening and disappearing

Both Craig Bingman and Randy Holmes-Farley have written wonderful articles on the benefits of combining Vinegar with Kalk. Anyone considering carbon dosing might wish to read both.

Thanks for keeping this tread going I am learning so much! I really appreciate all you guys!

[creefer]

Thanks for the recommended links, Tom. I plan on reading up on them and have been looking into using Kalk/ATO. Currently, I'm dosing small amounts of 2-part and have been looking into automation as you have established in your system. I only have a total system volume of approximately 28-30 +/- gallons when taking volume away for LR. Since I am religious with a 15% WC each week, my need for 2-part is somewhat limited. The larger problem I seem to have is pH maintenance, which is one of the things leading me to Kalk in the ATO. Thanks again.

While I don't dose Vodka, I do include Vinegar in my Kalk/ATO, which has the same effect of providing a carbon source. If you are using Kalk (Kalkwasser, Calcium Hydroxide, Limewater), vinegar provides additional benefits over vodka (or any other carbon source) namely,

• More Calcium ions - Because you are dissolving the Kalk in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate.
  
• The Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating (the white Calcium Carbonate "sludge" left at the bottom of your Kalk dosing container.)
  
• The remaining Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar provides free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank, converting more Nitrates to NO2 gas .

For reference, I currently use 10ml per of vinegar per gallon of top-off water. A peristaltic pump pushes the vinegar laden water though a Tunze Kalk dispenser that is located in a 7 gallon bucket that serves as ATO storage. In concert with the carbon dosing, I dose 10ml per week of MB-7 in a system of about 50 gallons (This strategy depends heavily on aggressive skimming.)

Slow and steady wins the race
I learned the hard way how critical it is to go very slowly when starting/adjusting Carbon dosing. Too much, too fast can wreak havoc. I just won a month long battle with a very nasty Cyano and hair algae outbreak caused by a too-rapid increase in carbon (fuel.)

When done correctly, it works. I am zero phosphates (Hanna Colorimeter), zero nitrates (ATI), more importantly, what little algae remains is whitening and disappearing

Both Craig Bingman and Randy Holmes-Farley have written wonderful articles on the benefits of combining Vinegar with Kalk. Anyone considering carbon dosing might wish to read both.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Do you think you could use this method w/o adding the MB-7. In my thread I had said I had started "experimenting" with my little tank. Currently dosing vodka and doing the limewater in my top offs. I do not currently add any MB7 I was just hoping that the bacteria already in my system would be sufficient to sustain this whole little experiment. Do you feel you need to add the MB because you are not using vodka, or is it IYO how you should go about it with any carbon dosing method? What are other peoples takes on this I see a lot of you also dose MB7 who doesn't?? Anyone?? What are the benefits in dosing both and what are the risks if any of only doing vodka or vinegar or whatever?

Thanks for keeping this tread going I am learning so much! I really appreciate all you guys!

Yes - The benefits of adding vinegar to Kalk are separate from and do not require the use of any bacterial additives. You have plenty of "flora and fauna" in your tank that can take advantage of the additional carbon source.

All we are doing by adding Carbon is "feeding" the bacteria that in addition to the carbon, consume Nitrates and Phosphates. We then use foam fractionation to "skim" them out of the water, thereby exporting the nutrients they have consumed. In essence, it's just another way to manage nutrient export, little different than growing and harvesting Chaeto or any other Macro algae.

The other stand-alone advantage of Vinegar is you're able to dissolve more Kalk in a given value of water. A gallon of water normally will become saturated at ~2 Tablespoons of Kalkwasser. Adding vinegar can increase in the amount Kalkwasser that will dissolve in a gallon of water to ~3 tablespoons. A more potent Kalkwasser solution means you may be able to reduce the amount of 2-part solution required - or in a low demand scenario, eliminate it all together. Adding more vinegar can also lower the pH of the Kalk solution, allowing more to be dosed before reaching pH limitations.

Just be sure to do your homework and go slow.

[korndiddy20]

I voted never, it seems to complicated and risky.

[Heidi]

Bump for 2 reasons....

1. did u ever end up doing this heidi????

2. looking for more input on vodka dosing as I am leaning that way myself

Thanks for the bump Chris! Yes I started dosing vodka in the Hex. I started at a really small amount like about .5 ml a day that I did at night just before lights out. I did it at night to ward off some of the negative bacteria that needs photosynthesis to grow, cyano and dinos and the like. I started about a week after I started this thread (I would guess around the middle of February.) I used the methods outlined on Vodka Dosing by 'Genetics' and 'Stony_Corals' - Reefkeeping.com There are charts there that tell you how much to start with and how to "ramp up" to the amount you need.
So I tested every 3 days and started to see a drop in phosphates after about 2 weeks. About another week from that I reached 0 phosphates and started doing my maintenance dose which was 3ml perday, which I split up to 2 doses once in the afternoon and once before lights out. I kept dosing the hex till I got my new tank and everything switched over. End of March I got the big tank up and running for a couple weeks and did the switch. At this time I had still zero nitrates and phosphates in the hex. I had beautiful color on stuff. Everything was very healthy and looked great. My little bacpac skimmer worked great although I had to clean it about once a day or every other day to keep it from overflowing. I got some dinos in the hex BUT there were only inside the back of the skimmer which was clear acrylic and exposed to the light of my huge windows all day.
I started dosing the 150 about 2 months in when I noticed phosphates. But this time I got a HUGE dino outbreak. I researched MB7 a bit and started dosing that because I really don't think there was enough bacteria base in the new tank and that is why the crazy dions TOOK OVER. I currently do not dose vodka, just MB7. Once I have this tank up for a few more months I would like to get a good phosphate meter and dose vodka or run bio pellets. I have much better color with a carbon source. And zero phosphates. I think that having a well established base of good bacteria is the key to carbon dosing. If I didn't answer your questions all the way let me know but I have to go this morning.
Heidi