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So we took the plunge


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  1. #21
    pinhigh1886 - Reefkeeper CR Member
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    Brighton, MI
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    John

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    kmbyrnes - Can you tell us what your parameters are reading? Nitrite, Nitrate, Ammonia, PH, Temp, Etc? Did the LFS take the water out or just put the whole tank water an all in your car? I wonder because it they took it out and you poured back in it might have caused another cycle killing fish right away? You said it was set up for 3 weeks. Should be enough for a nano to cycle but if not that could be what caused stress and ich?

  2. #22
    ReefTech - Reefkeeper Moderator

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    Awards Wheel Master Award - Helping with run the Frag & Swag wheel at the Michigan Coral Expo & Swap 2014. Yugo Award - For running the CR booth during MCES

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinhigh1886 View Post
    kmbyrnes - Can you tell us what your parameters are reading? Nitrite, Nitrate, Ammonia, PH, Temp, Etc? Did the LFS take the water out or just put the whole tank water an all in your car? I wonder because it they took it out and you poured back in it might have caused another cycle killing fish right away? You said it was set up for 3 weeks. Should be enough for a nano to cycle but if not that could be what caused stress and ich?
    I agree. If you don't have any test kits at home then taking some tank water to your LFS and have them test Nitrite, Nitrate, Ammonia is a great idea. I would agree that tearing the tank down and then setting it back up probably started a small cycle again since the tank had only been running for three weeks prior to the move which really isn't that long for a new tank to get established. Plus you might consider getting rid of the fish you have and starting over with one or two fish that would be better suited for a nano of that size. There are many different species of fish that stay really small that are perfect for your size tank. Or maybe just keep your clownfish in the hopes that it will create a symbiotic relationship with the anemone and that would help the sebae live longer. Not sure if your LFS informed you of this or not but a good rule of thumb is to allow 3 to 4 gallons of tank space per every inch of fish. For instince, if your clown is 2 inches in length then you should allow him 8 gallons of tank space to feel happy and unstressed, so with you having as many fish as you do now, when you do go to put them back in the nano, they may in time just stress each other out again bringing forth another possible ich outbreak or death of a fish. Your inverts look great though so keep your head up and remember to breath!!!

  3. #23
    CR Member
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    Aug 2013
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    Mesa AZ
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    Kevin

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    Everyone,
    Thanks for your continued interest and support!

    Reeftech, I was expecting everything to be dead, 2 weeks into this. The fact that only 1 snail, 1 anemone and 3 fish have died and even my sick fish got better makes me feel good about my chances of at least keeping coral!

    This tank looked good in the LFS display, but it had expert attention all day, everyday.
    It was clearly overstocked and I would feel like a mass murderer without the groups re-assurance. This is confusing for a newbie, but you are really being helpful and keeping me from over-worrying like a first time parent.

    The tank was dismantled, leaving about 2 inches of water in the tank. The rest of the livestock, live rock and existing seawater was packaged up and came home with us. When we re-added the water, we did it slowly and over the LR. Water didn't appear to cloud up much.

    3 Days later we went to LFS and had our first water test.
    Ammonia was off the color card. We did a 50% water change and waited a week
    In that time we lost a cool tie-dyed looking anemone that I hadn't identified yet. But everyone else was seemed fine. Next LFS water test had high nitrates. Did a 20% water change on LFS recommendation.
    Things looked good for a week. When we got ICH it was time for my own test kit.

    No code has to be inserted here.

    Water temp is 78 or 79.

    We like to look at the tank at night, but it is in a room that gets lots of indirect sunlight from 6a - 6p.
    Had been running lights from 12p - 10p, but put them on a timer this weekend.
    LFS said 8 - 10 hours, so I tried cutting back to 8.
    That's when my sebaes started to become unhappy. Have changed back to 10 hours.
    I also read I should be feeding them some bigger food by hand.
    Tried some of my 'people' shrimp cut up into 1/4 inch pieces. They LOVED IT!
    So did the mushroom coral!
    In fact,he looked JUST LIKE HE DID THE MORNING MY CLOWN DISAPPEARED.

    Both anemones appear better this AM. We found someone we thought was gone last night, hiding in the rocks.
    He looks like a single parsley branch, only the stick part is beet red and the leaves are long. narrow and medium green. Can't get a pic of him. Any suggestions to start my search?

    So for now the plan is to
    keep the 2 remaining fish QT'd
    keep lights at 10 hours
    regular water changes
    no new livestock ( even though my wife wants MORE )

  4. #24
    ReefTech - Reefkeeper Moderator

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    Awards Wheel Master Award - Helping with run the Frag & Swag wheel at the Michigan Coral Expo & Swap 2014. Yugo Award - For running the CR booth during MCES

    Default So we took the plunge

    Trust me my friend, there's not one person on this forum that hasn't had a fish or coral die on them, so unless you were pouring bleach into the tank you are no mass murderer. I'm glad to hear everything else in the tank is doing good. Not trying to knock on your LFS store but I just wish they had set you up better seeing this was your first tank and im confused why they would stock such a small tank with so much livestock. But oh well, that's the past and now it's time to move on. One question I have is what kind of text kits are you using? I don't recognize the results you got so if you could tell is the brand of text kit that would help. My suggestion would be to hold off on the water changes for a little bit. When you actually set up a saltwater tank from scratch with live sand and live rock it's gonna run through a cycle. What happens sometimes newbies test their water and see that everything's really high and react with doing a huge water change, cause in essence that should bring the numbers down but when the tank is trying to cycle itself, the water change interferes with the cycle which can make the cycle run longer than normal. And since you don't have any really demanding corals in your tank water parameters can fluctuate a little but without causing any significant stress to the corals. If you check out my tank thread you'll read that I have 180 gallons of total water volume running through three tanks that are all connected. I only do a 5 gallon water change every weekend, it helps but some fresh saltwater in the system but is small enough so it doesn't have an impact on my water parameters. This approach may help you stabilize your tank. If you can fill up a 5 gallon bucket of saltwater from your LFS store and do small water changes more often this may help being down your levels of ammonia and nitrates but not shock your system overall. Maybe try this method while your fish are in qt and then when they make the move back to the display make the water change a little bigger to counter the waste the fish will release into your water. Just continue to keep an eye on your sebae, everytime that thing move your gonna worry that something is wrong with it, that's why people will wait to get one just because they can prove frustrating, but like most other corals they will give you visual clues that something is wrong so at anytime your unclear about what it's doing or why it looks a certain way, snap a pic and post it and someone on here will have an answer for you. But feeding them once or twice a week is a good thing for them like you mentioned with the shrimp. So for now I would just stick to your plan you listed above and stick with it, things will finally settle down and you'll actually be able to enjoy your reef, I promise. And yes, you need to convince the wifey that more fish= more death right now. I just remembered something that I didn't see in any of the previous posts. What are you using for top off water?
    Likes MizTanks liked this post

  5. #25
    ReefTech - Reefkeeper Moderator

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    Default So we took the plunge

    One thing to check as well is the salinity of the tank, when was the last time that was checked and what instrument was used to check it? A refractometer or a hydrometer? Changes in salinity can be nasty for your critters as well. That's why I asked earlier about what you were using for top off water. Even though the tank is small it's still losing water volume to evaporation in which you need to replace what's lost with clean ro/di water to keep the salinity stable. Most people seem to have their salinity between 1.024-1.026.

  6. #26
    CR Member
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    Kevin

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    Matt,
    Thanks for your comments.
    I am not frustrated, Just a bit impatient. I expect setbacks, but I don't want to cause these creatures harm when I could have helped instead. Which is why I appreciate all the help

    The test kit is API Saltwater Master Liquid Test Kit, from Petco. The pH is a standard reading, The others are in PPM.

    I use RO/DI from LFS to top off, Usually every other day to a line I have marked on the tank.
    It amounts to about 3 cups each time.

    My saltwater is also from LFS, they say they keep it at 1.023. I take their word. Maybe I shouldn't?

    LFS said I should now be doing about 1 gallon a week in water change

    There is so much required equipment to do this right, I was hoping to acquire it a bit each week.
    I couldn't prioritize them with what little I know, so I was relying on certain things being fairly constant, like my salinity.
    I figured if I was getting premix from my LFS, that would remove the salinity varaible.
    Since you think salinity may be an issue, what do you recommend as a tool?
    Bear in mind that the long term goal is a 150 - 200 gallon DT, but we need to learn basics first.
    On the other hand I have learned that a good expensive tool will provide better value than a poor inexepensive one, even if it is overkill for the current task.

  7. #27
    ReefTech - Reefkeeper Moderator

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    Default So we took the plunge

    As far as checking salinity, I would highly recommend a refractometer. Yes they are more expensive up front but 99.99% accurate. Hydrometer are cheaper but they can give false readings. For instance the LFS store I worked at, I measured the premixed saltwater with a hydrometer that was properly broken in and got a reading of 1.023 and then used a refractometer and the reading was 1.026!!! Not to say all hydrometers are bad but refractometer s are just way more reliable and as long as you take care of it it will last as long as your in the hobby. The biggest thing for you tank is consistency, so whatever you've been doing as far as water changes every week, just stick with it. The one gallon a week sounds pretty good so stick with that. CONSISTENCY IS KEY. As far as where to keep your salinity at, that varies. You'll always get different answers, some people might say between 1.022 and 1.026others may say between 1.024 and 1.026 just don't want to go lower than 1.022 or higher than 1.027. If it does nothing will happen spontaneously but it will cause stress among the inhabitants. Plus if you look on online retailers that sell fish and corals, the sight usually lists the salinity that that critter is more comfortable in. You may over time raise it slowly a point or two and see if your anemone looks/acts any better. Just make sure that the water from the LFS store matches the salinity in your tank.

  8. #28
    binford4000 - Reefkeeper
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    Old man
    Awards Tank of the Month - May 2012 Tank of the Month

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    Good advice Reeftech. My concern is the water test. You should not put anymore livestock in your tank tell the ammonia and No2 are reading ZERO. You are going thru a cycle for sure. Ammonia is the quickest way to wipe out a small tank like this. Doing water changes in moderation will help replenish much needed trace elements and help your water column stabilize . I usually do 10% on a weekly basis. On my system that works out to 30 gallons. Small tanks like yours have a tendency to react very quickly. When things go bad they go bad fast. Unfortunately corrections take time! You might want to consider getting your own test kits and test frequently tell things calm down. Then get in the habit of doing it weekly to keep an eye on things. A lot of nano people use chem clean to help get things under control. It is a band aid but will help get things normal. As far as water is concerned if you do not have an RO system or a dependable source to get it distilled water is a fair substitution for top off. Good luck and welcome to the salt life . If your looking for a dependable reading source to help you understand and enjoy reefing I would recommend Anthony Calfo's book of coral propagation. The first several chapters are very good in structural advice on equipment,lighting and water conditions and explain just what you need to know from beginner to advanced.


    Post script : you say your running a ten hour light cycle. That is a very longtime. In reality if you have no dimming on your light cycle six hours of full power is the minimum you need,anymore then eight is really just donating to the electric company. With the species you have right now turning the lights on an hour before you come home from work will give you five hours of enjoyment and much less algae. To clean and fight.
    Last edited by binford4000; 08-24-2013 at 06:39 AM.
    Likes MizTanks liked this post

  9. #29
    CR Member
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    Kevin

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    So it's been a busy 12 days.

    First the bad news. All my fish have died from the ich treatment and subsequent quarantine. It may have been the small pump I got from Petco was just too strong. My wife thinks the clownfish died from exhaustion. She could be right. So now we will just wait 8 weeks before getting any new fish, and set up a better QT system.

    The good news is everyone else is very happy. Lights are now on for 8 hours.
    The sebaes have moved and found spots to their liking and they all take shrimp from a baster.
    My zoas are thriving and multiplying like crazy. Same for the palys.
    Our hermit crab was very quiet for 3 days, no re-arranging the aquascape, barely eating.
    We bought a gaudy new shell and he moved into it, anemones and all overnight.
    Then yesterday, he molted. Very cool. So I guess he was just cramped.

    I met a guy from craigslist that gave me great info on local clubs and swaps and mostly MORE LFS.
    Wife and I will be spending our day checking some of them out.
    He also gifted me a neon carpet mushroom from his 125.
    It is now feeling very happy in its new home as well.

    I found a used 110 gal tall on craigslist for $125. Has an HOB overflow, 850 gph Little Giant pump,30 gal sump system and all the plumbing. 2x 175w MH fixtures with ballast. and 2x65 PC fixture, plus a home made stand
    Some it it is old and will have to be replaced before this can all be setup, but its a start.
    The main thing is the tank and sump don't leak!
    I guess the real reading and planning begins ........


    FTS from last night:
    IMG 02002 zps45d85938 - So we took the plunge

    New Neon Mushroom:
    IMG 0214 zpsb9d1778f - So we took the plunge

    Crab Molting Leftovers
    IMG 0213 zpscaa6ec7b - So we took the plunge

  10. #30

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    Probably info you won't use, but a 110 is the difficult brother of the 90 which is the kind of bad brother of the 70 which is a kind of usable reef tank. All have an 18 by 48" base and heights of 20, 24, and 30". Light falling off by the square of the distance from the source to object being lit is a very difficult concept to grasp but the bottom line is that approximate twice the lumens will be needed for the 110 rather than the 70 for a given light intensity at the usual placing of the photosynthetic animals, not even considering the extra water need for exchanges with no advantage in tank and animal appearance. In my personal opinion, a reef tank should be wider than it is tall which prevents avalanches among other benefits, but they are hard to find. JMHO, Dick

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