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Hot and Heavy Topic of the Week!


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  1. #1
    mallorieGgator - Reefkeeper CR Member
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    Default Hot and Heavy Topic of the Week!

    Hey everyone,
    I wanted to do an ethical topic every week to talk CALMLY about issues in our hobby and what we can do to try and fix some problems. I'm going to do a new topic every week until I can't think of anymore. Some rules:
    1. Don't attack each other, this is meant to show our points of view, not to call names or get banned.
    That's all the rules. lol.

    So, today's topic is this.

    One huge issue I have is that people aren't viewing corals as LIVING creatures. These are animals and sensitive animals at that. I have had enough of seeing people treat these animals like crap. These aren't plants (heck, I treat my plants better than some treat their corals). I would never cut one of my orchids into two pieces if there were only two pieces of it to begin with, it stresses the plant out so bad that the next new growths are stunted. So, why so we want to cut up corals that are tiny for even smaller frags? Is it the money? Is it the look of having a ton of different corals? What is it?

    Please only reply if you have something to contribute that isn't rude. Thanks!
    Mallorie Gaughran- U.F. Animal Bio Undergrad
    55 Gallon SPS and Zoanthid Dominant Tank with a few LPS and NPS here and there.
    Likes jimsflies, MUCHO REEF liked this post

  2. #2
    Jarred1 - Reefkeeper CR Member
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    I think that the people who frag their frags are the people who buy the over priced corals. They frag their tiny corals to try and regain their coin as well as try and make some coin. I myself have corals that I have spent more than I wanted to but I really like them and they are growing out and remain unfragged. I think it is wrong to frag tiny corals to try and make money off of it.
    Likes MUCHO REEF liked this post

  3. #3

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    I rather see coral fragged then it mined out the ocean like it has been for years. Natural Fragging one way nature ensure survival without the humans. In nature some external event happens that splits a coral/anemone and they devide and become 2. As human we were inquisitive and studied coral reproduction. This led to artificial fragging of corals. This has led to selling small frags for big prices (law of supply and demand kills us lol). But this has led to fewercorals being taken out the ocean. THis is very important. There are areas in the world that do not allow the "mining" of reefs so the only way it to have a piece of certain species is to have a frag. Also, there are reef reclimation projects that they are actually putting frags of corals trying to recreate or preserve reefs. I beleive fragging is good for the protection of the reefs. We will always want to have our glass box of water filled with life. It is human nature.

  4. #4
    Jarred1 - Reefkeeper CR Member
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    I don't think fragging has led to less corals coming from the wild. CITES gives the people that sell to the wholesalers a number of corals collectors can collect of a certain species from the wild to sell. The collectors will try and collect every coral they can so that they can make as much money as possible. In fact, I think if the supplier that sells to our wholesalers sees that people are wanting zoas they will send the collectors to get more zoas.

  5. #5
    rmalone - Reefkeeper CR Member
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    Default

    If you have a coral in your tank you have every right to frag it however you see fit. How is it wrong to frag a small coral, in an effort to offset some of the money you spent, regardless of how much it cost? I don't get it. As far as being animals yes they are technically animals, but ethically I consider a coral far more similar to an orchid than a dog. Corals are simpler organisms than worms. I routinely shove a hook through a worm several times and throw in the water in an effort to catch a fish (which I might let go, or fillet and eat), and fish are far more advanced creatures than coral.

    Personally I really do consider animals of all types to be natural resources. We as humans have a responsibility to manage that resource thoughtfully and sustainably, but it's not wrong to kill a cow and eat it, or chop up a coral and sell it. Basically I don't consider that animals have rights, humans just have use animals in responsible manner, with the ultimate goal being sustainability.

  6. #6
    Jarred1 - Reefkeeper CR Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmalone View Post
    If you have a coral in your tank you have every right to frag it however you see fit. How is it wrong to frag a small coral, in an effort to offset some of the money you spent, regardless of how much it cost? I don't get it. As far as being animals yes they are technically animals, but ethically I consider a coral far more similar to an orchid than a dog. Corals are simpler organisms than worms. I routinely shove a hook through a worm several times and throw in the water in an effort to catch a fish (which I might let go, or fillet and eat), and fish are far more advanced creatures than coral.

    Personally I really do consider animals of all types to be natural resources. We as humans have a responsibility to manage that resource thoughtfully and sustainably, but it's not wrong to kill a cow and eat it, or chop up a coral and sell it. Basically I don't consider that animals have rights, humans just have use animals in responsible manner, with the ultimate goal being sustainability.
    What makes you think that humans aren't animals?

  7. #7
    mallorieGgator - Reefkeeper CR Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulo View Post
    I rather see coral fragged then it mined out the ocean like it has been for years. Natural Fragging one way nature ensure survival without the humans. In nature some external event happens that splits a coral/anemone and they devide and become 2. As human we were inquisitive and studied coral reproduction. This led to artificial fragging of corals. This has led to selling small frags for big prices (law of supply and demand kills us lol). But this has led to fewercorals being taken out the ocean. THis is very important. There are areas in the world that do not allow the "mining" of reefs so the only way it to have a piece of certain species is to have a frag. Also, there are reef reclimation projects that they are actually putting frags of corals trying to recreate or preserve reefs. I beleive fragging is good for the protection of the reefs. We will always want to have our glass box of water filled with life. It is human nature.
    So, there are things that a lot of hobbyists don't know. I never realized things happen until I was told by other vendors in the hobby. Almost all vendors are getting wild caught corals. Where do you think new named corals come from? They are caught by collectors because they are in high demand.
    This is very true and I head this from the mouth of a vendor.
    I went to a reef conference a few weeks ago. This guy had a tank with lots of irritated corals in it and the water was very cloudy. I asked someone later why that was and he told me what the vendor routinely does. He has corals shipped in the day of or the day before the show. Then he cuts them all up with a bandsaw the day of the show to sell thim. We are all getting screwed because this guy isn't responsible enough to frag his corals a few weeks before the show. Why is he doing this? He's not the only one I'm sure because I see people my age (in their mid 20s) that are vendors and ALL of them have corals that look terrible for sale. Shrunken polyps on white plugs, and chalice's with obvious newly cut edges. I see this all of the time. Many of these corals die if they are newly fragged and this leads to more corals being brought in from the wild.

    Vendors are always looking for new trends as well which also beings in tons of corals from the wild so our hobby is far from sustainable right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by rmalone View Post
    If you have a coral in your tank you have every right to frag it however you see fit. How is it wrong to frag a small coral, in an effort to offset some of the money you spent, regardless of how much it cost? I don't get it. As far as being animals yes they are technically animals, but ethically I consider a coral far more similar to an orchid than a dog. Corals are simpler organisms than worms. I routinely shove a hook through a worm several times and throw in the water in an effort to catch a fish (which I might let go, or fillet and eat), and fish are far more advanced creatures than coral.

    Personally I really do consider animals of all types to be natural resources. We as humans have a responsibility to manage that resource thoughtfully and sustainably, but it's not wrong to kill a cow and eat it, or chop up a coral and sell it. Basically I don't consider that animals have rights, humans just have use animals in responsible manner, with the ultimate goal being sustainability.
    The problem I with fragging to get your money back is that this is a hobby. Enjoy it! It's not meant to get money back. Be patient. This hobby is all about patients. How hard is it to wait a month until your frag has 10 polyps on it? Then if you must frag to regain some money, frag off two atleast two poyps and you will have happier corals. You will also have a happier buyer when their coral grows and doesn't sit there with one polyp on it for 2 mos. or worse, it dies because that is money out of their pockets that is wasted.

    I do think animals have the right to be treated humanely by the humans that have control over them. So you are saying an animal doesn't have the right to be healthy and happy and it is ok to beat your dog or whip your horse? Think about it, where do you draw the line with animals? I understand your view on corals being like worms...but they are expensive worms. lol. And I believe if we are going to pay some money for these animals, they should be treated properly for their benefit and for the buyer's benefits. If you let your corals grow and frag when the colony's nice and large, you will still get your money back (even if the price has dropped, you can frag more polyps then just one to regain your money) and your mother colony will be much happier in the long run and produce healthier polyps for you.
    Mallorie Gaughran- U.F. Animal Bio Undergrad
    55 Gallon SPS and Zoanthid Dominant Tank with a few LPS and NPS here and there.

  8. #8
    rmalone - Reefkeeper CR Member
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    I never said humans aren't animals, did I?? We are simply the ONLY animals with ability to understand the ramifications of our decisions and to plan our use of the rest of the world, be that use animal, plant, mineral, water, etc, etc. Like it or not humans are natural resources ourselves, we routinely use each other to produce products, provide services and help us with our own happiness. Help with our happiness is the main reason we all keep aquariums, it makes us happy to provide for the creatures in our tanks and to watch them grow and thrive. Lets face it most people in this hobby pour our discretionary money into our tanks to help support them, if your good enough at the hobby for your skills and husbandry to help offset that expense, and that sale in turn puts a coral into another tank (hopefully to grow and prosper) then how is that not awesome?

    I get the impression from some in this hobby that it's somehow "evil" to profit from the hobby, or the natural world in general. I really don't understand that mentality. I see threads all the time about some on line vendor or lfs selling a coral for $200 per frag, and the responses are "how can they do that to us", "it's just wrong to charge so much", "you know they don't have anywhere near that much money into that coral", "it's just all about greed". I am kind of tired of that, just don't buy the coral if you think the price is too high. Dont buy the coral from a fellow hobbiest if you think they cut to small of a frag from too small of a colony.

  9. #9
    mallorieGgator - Reefkeeper CR Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmalone View Post
    I never said humans aren't animals, did I?? We are simply the ONLY animals with ability to understand the ramifications of our decisions and to plan our use of the rest of the world, be that use animal, plant, mineral, water, etc, etc. Like it or not humans are natural resources ourselves, we routinely use each other to produce products, provide services and help us with our own happiness. Help with our happiness is the main reason we all keep aquariums, it makes us happy to provide for the creatures in our tanks and to watch them grow and thrive. Lets face it most people in this hobby pour our discretionary money into our tanks to help support them, if your good enough at the hobby for your skills and husbandry to help offset that expense, and that sale in turn puts a coral into another tank (hopefully to grow and prosper) then how is that not awesome?

    I get the impression from some in this hobby that it's somehow "evil" to profit from the hobby, or the natural world in general. I really don't understand that mentality. I see threads all the time about some on line vendor or lfs selling a coral for $200 per frag, and the responses are "how can they do that to us", "it's just wrong to charge so much", "you know they don't have anywhere near that much money into that coral", "it's just all about greed". I am kind of tired of that, just don't buy the coral if you think the price is too high. Dont buy the coral from a fellow hobbiest if you think they cut to small of a frag from too small of a colony.
    I don't think there is anything wrong with making a little money but in all reality, you really don't make your money back unless you're doing this on a large scale once you factor in the maintenance and power prices of your tank. I have a problem with people getting ripped off because someone couldn't wait long enough to try and make their money back. When the seller frags one polyp off of a two polyp frag and the unsuspecting buyer buys one polyp that isn't healed and it dies, that is when I have a problem.

    Let's stick to this topic on why most people want to buy tiny frags and why they feel the need to frag 2 polyp corals.
    Mallorie Gaughran- U.F. Animal Bio Undergrad
    55 Gallon SPS and Zoanthid Dominant Tank with a few LPS and NPS here and there.

  10. #10
    Jarred1 - Reefkeeper CR Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmalone View Post
    If you have a coral in your tank you have every right to frag it however you see fit. How is it wrong to frag a small coral, in an effort to offset some of the money you spent, regardless of how much it cost? I don't get it. As far as being animals yes they are technically animals, but ethically I consider a coral far more similar to an orchid than a dog. Corals are simpler organisms than worms. I routinely shove a hook through a worm several times and throw in the water in an effort to catch a fish (which I might let go, or fillet and eat), and fish are far more advanced creatures than coral.

    Personally I really do consider animals of all types to be natural resources. We as humans have a responsibility to manage that resource thoughtfully and sustainably, but it's not wrong to kill a cow and eat it, or chop up a coral and sell it. Basically I don't consider that animals have rights, humans just have use animals in responsible manner, with the ultimate goal being sustainability.
    So by you understanding that we are animals as well then you would also understand that we don't have the rights to do as we please with other life forms.

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