Hot and Heavy Topic of the Week!

[rmalone]

When did I say we humans have the right to beat our dogs, or whip horses?? Really you guys stop trying to read between the lines. I will say what I think and think what I say. I did say that humans have the responsibility to act in a thoughtful, responsible manner toward our resources, never mind if it's animals or water, whatever it may.

Who are you to tell anyone that they cant profit from a hobby?? When I was 20yrs old my hobby was plants, I took that passion for the hobby and got a degree in horticulture from MSU, now that hobby isn't even a hobby it's just a way to make a living. People at our local lfs's have the same thing happen, 12hrs a day at the lfs will make you not want to deal with your own tank anymore, go ahead ask them. Once again making a few bucks on your hobby isn't evil.

Where did you get the idea that fragging 2 zoanthids into 2 singles is any harder on them that taking 5 polyps off a colony of 50? Sure the guys buying in wild acros, fragging them and selling same day are going to meet with alot of dead frags. But you know what? the market figures those guys out, and pretty soon they go away. Simply because they aren't providing a quality product.

[rmalone]

No within the restraints of sustainability and sensibility we DO have the right to use other animals as we see fit. Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with killing cows, keeping chickens in small pens to produce outrageous numbers of eggs, fish farming in large barrels to feed people. NOPE nothing wrong with any of that. And nothing wrong with fragging my 2" red planet. In fact I have a frag of that red planet laying on the sand this morning, it will stay there too because I just made as 50gallon vat of fertilizer (no it's not organic) and I would rather not stick my nitrate, phosphate and potassium laden hands into my reef, which would risk every other organism in the tank.

You guys are trying to make it look like I don't care about animals or the world in general, well thats not true. I will put the health of my tank and my dog and my commercial plants (probably evil also), against anyone out there.

[MUCHO REEF]

"

Hey everyone,
I wanted to do an ethical topic every week to talk CALMLY about issues in our hobby and what we can do to try and fix some problems. I'm going to do a new topic every week until I can't think of anymore.

Great idea Mallorie

Some rules:
1. Don't attack each other, this is meant to show our points of view, not to call names or get banned.
That's all the rules. lol.

Another great idea

So, today's topic is this.

One huge issue I have is that people aren't viewing corals as LIVING creatures.

I agree 100%

So, why so we want to cut up corals that are tiny for even smaller frags?

The only logic I can see for fragging a 3 polyp frag is for money.

Is it the money? Is it the look of having a ton of different corals? What is it?

I have always allowed my tank to grow so it actually looks like a reef. The only time I fragged mother colonies is when I simply had to due to excessive growth or growth which reached the glass and/or affected the growth of other rocks.

Here is a picture of Archie's tank, no frags



Click the link and read about his tank -- http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-08/totm/index.php

Many new reefers aren't even aware how beuatiful a mother colony is and many don't know they even exist. I hope this stunning picture sheds light on that.

Mucho Reef

Please only reply if you have something to contribute that isn't rude. Thanks!

[jimsflies]

Personally I don't have a problem with fragging frags. I don't have a problem with someone wishing to recoup some costs because the frag cost more than they wanted to spend on it. It is their business and I either decide to buy it or not (usually not...but doesn't mean I hate them for it).

Ultimately it helps spread out the morphs and eventually drives down the price so that it gets to the point where I feel it is worth it for me to purchase it. There have been numerous morphs that have gone from hot collector pieces fetching top prices to essentially common place in a period of a few years.

Maybe as an aside topic....next weeks or part of this discussion; which is a bigger travesty?... Fragging frags or having one person buy the only known colony of a morph and never fragging it?

[jimsflies]

One huge issue I have is that people aren't viewing corals as LIVING creatures. These are animals and sensitive animals at that. I have had enough of seeing people treat these animals like crap. These aren't plants (heck, I treat my plants better than some treat their corals). I would never cut one of my orchids into two pieces if there were only two pieces of it to begin with, it stresses the plant out so bad that the next new growths are stunted. So, why so we want to cut up corals that are tiny for even smaller frags? Is it the money? Is it the look of having a ton of different corals? What is it?

And I guess to actually answer your question ... I don't equate corals the same as I do other animals. Maybe if I saw blood and guts when I did this, or they yelped when cut I would think twice about it.

Also when we are talking about fragging zoanthids, especially small frags, we are typically cutting their connective tissue...not cutting the polyp itself.

Do we know for sure it is bad for zoanthids? It seems to me when they are fragged, they tend to grow at a quicker pace...often springing up several new polyps within weeks.

[bluwc]

I agree with Jim and rmalone. What gives anyone the right to tell you what to do with your property. If you bought it, you own it. It may be unethical in some eyes, it may be just totally wrong, but the good thing about America is that you don't have to go to that person for coral or anything else. You don't have to talk to them, deal with them and I'm not sure about the rest of you.....I don't see everyone on this forum on a daily or weekly basis. I have met a lot of great people in this hobby and I have also met some that I would never deal with again (not many). And sorry to say but I don't think corals the same as dogs.

If I want some high end z's & p's, why is it wrong for someone to frag a 4p frag of something, trade with a friend who has a different "name" z or p. We have a thing, you get this and I'll get that and when it grows out some, we'll frag it and trade to get more colorful varities in our tanks. Or what is the problem with selling it so that I can buy another frag? I have never lost a z or p due to fragging and if you can get a clean cut, why not? As said earlier, what's the difference if you are fragging 1p off a 4p frag or a 5p off a 50p frag? Is there some scientific research that this is bad? Are there studies that say we should not be doing this? I recently cut some z's up earlier this past week......fresh cut and they were put into someone elses tank an hour later. Guess what?....they were all open and happy within a matter of minutes of being put in.....oh and no acclimation either. Now I didn't sell these high end corals, I had someone come over to learn how to frag and just Gave him some. Mine will grow more and to me, it's not that big of a deal.

On another note, I bought a 5p frag of rastas and I'm not sure how long DC had it, but he sold it because he couldn't get it to grow. I put it in my tank and for 3mths and I didn't get a single baby. I then decided to cut one off to put in my cube. Do you know within the past 2mths it grew to 20p?

[jimsflies]

To me it isn't clear that this is "bad for the animal". If fragging killed them, it wouldn't be that common. I don't think anyone sets out to kill their coral by fragging it.

If we take money out of this as a factor...lets say I wanted to give my buddy a polyp off the new frag I bought, would it still considered bad? If so, how many polyps does it take to be considered ok to frag?

[rmalone]

One litWell shave seen small sps frags that refused to grow for months, take a frag .25" off the main branch and the coral grows like crazy. WOW I have seen many plants do the same thing. Often times the best thing you can do for a plant or corals well being is chop off pieces.

Are we going to stand here and tell people its wrong to have "frag" tanks? Is it wrong to find a source for wild coral and then make a profit chopping that coral into small pieces to make a profit? Is it wrong for a ranch in Texas to produce a million head of cattle and kill them all, put it in cellophane and sell it to us for the grill? How about my plants at the greenhouse? Should I not buy 3000 geraniums in November and. "Frag" them every chance I get until I have 18000 "frags" (they are called liners or cuttings in the plant trade)?? Oh and should I feel guilty for making a profit on those plants, kind of like vendors make a profit on coral? Questions, eh. Interesting topic, keep in mind when ethics and morality enter the disscussion you can no longer keep dialoug in a tidy little box, that only addresses a narrow issue. Even if this forum is created around a narrow, though important, part of our lives.

[MizTanks]

interesting reading....

[Heidi]

First let's adress the original point She started this I think, correct me if wrong that it was an ask why everyone wants to buy tiny frags and sell them... And is that ethical behavior?
My answer to this is (although I have only been this hobby less then a year now). I don't think it is unethical at all. Do I think its a huge rip off? Yes. Do I not understand at all why people buy those tiny pencil eraser sized frags? Yes I do, they want something really bad. Maybe the fancy name and they collect by name. Maybe just feel they can have a more diverse reef if they have ten frags instead of one. If there are people who buy tiny frags there will be people selling them.... Forever... That is capitalism baby!
Guess what people stop buying... And boom no more itty bitty frags.
I have met quite a few reefers and can't wait to meet more this fall and winter at swaps. I would gather that if not all... Almost all have no desire to put a 4 polyoped sps in their DT and cut off two to sell in a month... The behavior seems a bit dramatic.
Omg I am on my phone right now and I have some bits I wanna quote and respond too so you all will have to wait till I can get to my laptop later... Oh boy all I can say is I have a few things to say about humans and animals.. Until later....
Heidi