System Design - Scheduled Chat 9-11 p EST

[jimsflies]

Weekly scheduled chat is a new feature here on CR. We thought it would be fun and informative to have an on topic discussion regarding a reef-related subject. We ask that you try to stay on a topic as much as possible. The chat box which appears at the top of each forum page will also be available for off-topic discussion.

We'll unlock this thread right before the scheduled chat this evening. Once the chat starts, you will not need to refresh your page view to see new posts in this thread.

This week's topic is "System Design". Potential discussions are not limited to this list but could include designing for maintaining a particular type of livestock, energy efficiency, architectural layout, and aesthetics. It will help our conversation have some ideas to share or questions to answer.

Hope you all can participate in our discussion this evening.

[jimsflies]

Okay...lets give this a try and talk about system design considerations.

[Cash]

Raises hand--im here lol

[jimsflies]

I'm currently working on a tank upgrade and one of my main considerations is energy efficiency.

[Sir Patrick]

Here also.

[jimsflies]

looks like it is working for you guys

[Mike]

Hello all

[Cash]

working fine here

[schminksbro]

Hello, all

[jimsflies]

Great looks like it works. Hopefully we don't break the server with all this trickery!

[schminksbro]

I am unable to use the quick reply

[Sir Patrick]

seems to me lighting, heating and water movment take alot of energy

[whitetiger61]

see if this worked

[jimsflies]

Use the http://www.captivereefs.com/forum/coral/buttons/quickreply.gif button at the bottom of a post to use the quick reply.

[Sir Patrick]

quick reply works for me

[jimsflies]

Quick reply always uses that button. I may try to change that in the future.

[schminksbro]

gotcha, working now

[Cash]

What is everyone average total watts of thier system? and total gallon size?

[Mike]

It does.....

WE all know there are a lot of low wattage options now though. WIth the exception of heating.

[whitetiger61]

ok i think im working now

[schminksbro]

I run 2 250w halides over my 100 gallon and 1 over my 30 gallon frag tank

[jimsflies]

My current thought process is to run a sumpless system and connect all equipment with a closed loop. The only thing that doesn't work for is the skimmer.

[schminksbro]

I supplement with 2 54w t5s on the display

[schminksbro]

I have run sumpless and it always frustrated me that I had no space

[whitetiger61]

30 gal 96 watts t5 HO lighting

[Sir Patrick]

I have been curiose about low energy pumps

[schminksbro]

In my opinion a skimmer is mandatory

[Mike]

I have 1300 watts over the 270 in lighting

[jimsflies]

I think reefermike built a similar system. I'm looking at a 60 gal cube.

I also have been thinking about trying to simplify my setup and reduce the amount of equipment.

[Mike]

Been using a Red Dragon for almost 5 years now and it works great (even though I had to replace a bearing and shaft).

[jimsflies]

I would still go with a skimmer, but I'm looking at a tunze comline in tank skimmer.

[schminksbro]

As an SPS guy I have come to appreciate gadgets. what kind of corals do you intend to keep Jim?

[whitetiger61]

i run sumpless but i have a hang on skimmer

[Cash]

lights, heater, pumps, and powers heads total about 602 watts on a 90g dt 29g fuge

Lights 216
pumps 115
Power heads 21
heater 250

[Mike]

I am guessing I have somewhere in the neighborhood of around 4000 watts runing when the lights are on

[jimsflies]

Yeah...corals. I'm not sure. I have always run a mixed reef. But in the name of simlicity and success and energy efficiency, I am thinking about going with species that require less lighting.

[schminksbro]

I would think you would want to decide the needs of the system and then determine the most efficient means of providing them.

[jimsflies]

You mean need of the coral?

[Mike]

WIth the T5's though you can still keep anything

[Mike]

I tend to keep really shallow water species so high light is a must for me.

[schminksbro]

I think with overdriven T5s you can keep anything but there goes your efficiency

[jimsflies]

Yeah...not sure if I will use t5s or halide. Looked real hard at available LEDs and just can't pull the trigger on those yet.

[schminksbro]

It is a myth that T5s are more efficient than halides

[Mike]

The LED's are so far away still from being able to do the job I think

[jimsflies]

My wife wants a pendant over the tank...one that looks like the solana halide pendant.

[whitetiger61]

Jim i have t5 lighting and i keep just about anything

[Mike]

Very stylish look!

[jimsflies]

Well and I have a problem using the long life that they tought as justification for the high price. If they only last 5 years instead of 10, you just spent a lot of money on your lights.

[Mike]

I bought some of those LED tubes from PJR and am disappointed in the output!

[schminksbro]

What about the natural shimmer? For me that is a driving force in my consideration of lighting.

[Mike]

I have an Apogee meter and the PAR was dismal

[jimsflies]

Yeah, I researched those pjr tubes hard. They seem a little shady with the numbers and what they are willing to post.

[schminksbro]

How about the cost of replacing T5s vs Halides?

[Mike]

Mine is output :)

I saw them on PJR's tank and there is no way I could do a SPS reef with those unless I have 15 at least

[jimsflies]

I'm also with Andy...I like those shimmer lines

[Mike]

I like blue bulks (20K) and the shimmer

[schminksbro]

My replies are no longer posting

[Mike]

I tried a bank of 12 60" T5's over my 270 and it was not pleasing to my eye. No shimmer lines :(

[jimsflies]

Try a refresh andy.

[Mike]

Needless to say I went back to Halides

[jimsflies]

Bet you had plenty of light with the bank of t5's though.

[Mike]

I have also tried all of the popular reflectors now :)

[jimsflies]

Is anyone else still with us???

[Mike]

The numbers were not bad. The heat issues were the same if not worse due to teh distance of the lamp from the water.

[Mike]

The good thing about halides is you can get a better spread with more distance and also dissipate some heat that way. I had the T5's 6 inches off the water.

[Cash]

still here just taking in everything lol

[schminksbro]

When you think about the number of T% bulbs you need to equal halides, then you overdrive them, you are not really saving any energy. $ overdriven T5s = 432 watts. Almost the same as 2 250 halides without the shimmer.

[Sir Patrick]

Live topic doesnt seem to be working for me, between posting, a whole page goes by.

I thought there were no new replies, then refreshed and missed 3 pages.

Maybe I just dont understand how live topic works

[jimsflies]

I have had thoughts at times, that I am over lighting many of the corals that I keep. I have a 250 halide and 4 t5 actinics currently.

[Mike]

I was running my T5's on IC 660's

[jimsflies]

I would suggest, that you guys set your options in your profile to allow the maximum number of posts per page to display...I think you can get 40.

[Mike]

I can keep stuff on teh very bottom of the tank easily with the halides

[schminksbro]

So in reallity you would likely need 6 T5s to equal 2 250 halides which means that overdriven you are running 648 watts.

[jimsflies]

If you notice it not refreshing automatically, try a manual refresh.

So far it has worked for me. But we are experimenting with this first time to see how it works and if we like it.

[Mike]

Thatis true Andy

[Mike]

The only benefit that I see is the color combo thing with the T5's. Since I am a 20K guy it is not appealing to me though.

[Cash]

4 t5's on a 90g here for 216W's. dont have the shimmer of MH but hoping it is enough for some easy corals

[Mike]

Should be fine.

[Cash]

oh and this is refreshing automaticly for me

[Mike]

Talk about over lighting Jim......

I had 5-400 watters on a 180. 20K-6.5K-20K-6.5K 20K

[Cash]

now I am trying to get my skimmer working properly

[jimsflies]

I think the issue where the chat seems to stop working likely has to do with chats going over to a new page. It is less of an issue if you set your "edit options" in your usercp to the maximum number of posts per page.

[schminksbro]

The problem is planning on easy corals and then deciding to go with more challenging and light demanding stuff.

[Mike]

Just dialing it in?????

[jimsflies]

Andy you are exactly right. I go through phases on what corals I am digging. I can't seem to settle on a particular group

[Cash]

Yeah maybe I am still just getting clearing foam/bubbles right now. I guess it is breaking in. It has been running for 48 hours now

[jimsflies]

cash -What kind of skimmer do you have?

How did you pick that one? (for the sake of keeping this in the topic of system design while we also try to help you.)

[Cash]

It is a old Red Sea Berlin

[Mike]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/skippyreef/Dscn1507.jpg

This tank had a surge on it

[schminksbro]

I think after setting up a few systems that it is a good idea to set up a system that will grow anything. Then you aren't limited by your equipment.

[Cash]

Classic berlin. I got some helpful info on the post I made just trying to get it broke in now

[Mike]

That white inlet dumped 6 gallons every 45 seconds into that tank,

[jimsflies]

cash - is it brand new skimmer?

[schminksbro]

So assuming your going to keep the most light demanding corals, what lighting do you think your going to go with Jim?

[Cash]

No it was used. But was told it still needed a break in period

[jimsflies]

I really want to go with a 250 pendant and some LEDs for dusk to dawn....in an ideal world. The problem is, my tank needs to meet the wife approval as I am moving it out of my man cave into a more visible place. She likes that 150 pendant that current makes for their solana line...disco ball looking thing.

[jimsflies]

I don't think you'd need to break in a used skimmer.

[schminksbro]

I think you will likely regret a 150 halide. They lack "punch".

[Mike]

I wouldn't go under 250 anymore

[jimsflies]

Chris (Sir Partick)- Is the chat working better for you now?

[whitetiger61]

its really slow for me

[jimsflies]

I grew some nice weeds in my last system using a 150 and a couple PC's.

[schminksbro]

Another consideration is bulb availability. What kind of bulb do you want to run? SE vs DE? Magnetic vs Electronic ballasts?

[Mike]

Well Andy and I are founding memebers ofthe No Mud Club so ne weeds for us in the main display :)

[Cash]

Well all I am getting out of my skimmer is alot of white bubble going inot the cup then drain out through the drain hole

[MizTanks]

All's working great for me! And boy oh boy am I learning a lot about lighting! Like I'm better off getting an all in one tank. LOL

[jimsflies]

I have been running a phoenix 250, last tank I ran the 150.

[Mike]

The Lumentek ballast cannot be beat IMO

[Sir Patrick]

nope, refreshing a ton. Think I will just follow along

[schminksbro]

Personally I think electronic ballasts allow the most flexibility. I am running magnetics and will likely upgrade.

[Mike]

Lower the water level in the skimmer body and skim drier for a few days

[jimsflies]

Chris - What browser are you using?

[Mike]

Teh Lumenteks are digital ballast.....far superior to the Ice caps I have.

[Cash]

ok the the skimmer is sitting in my sump in about 10" of water. how much so you think I need to raise it?

[jimsflies]

I like the size better on the electronic ballasts. The magnetic just take up too much space. I can't have any equipment visible with the new setup.

[Cash]

When you say skim drier you mean less air? Sorry for all the newbie questions lol

[Mike]

Does it have a stand pipe to adjust the level????

[jimsflies]

Most in sump skimmers seem to work well in 6-8 inches. At leas the smaller ones that I have used.

[schminksbro]

Ok so electronic ballast. Probably a 250w?

[Mike]

I mean less water and more air

[schminksbro]

Drier = less water.

[Cash]

No stand pipe. The only manual adj. is a knob that alows more or less air into it

[Sir Patrick]

windows xp

[Mike]

My monster is sitting in 8.5 inches of water.

[jimsflies]

Cash- You should put something under it to raise the skimmer. If there is a standpipe you can then adjust the water level in the skimmer so that it is not overflowing.

[whitetiger61]

i hadnt used my skimmer in awhile and i had to dry skim for about a week then it started working great

[Mike]

The raise it our of the water an inch and increase air to teh skimmer

[Cash]

ok sounds like I need to raise it up some I will try that later tonight
Thanks

[whitetiger61]

wooooooohoooooooooo now im getting faster on here

[schminksbro]

When tuning a skimmer start at a level that seems like the foam will never get over the top. Let it run for 24 hours. If it isn't going over yet make a very tiny adjustment. Wait another 24 hours and repeat until the cup has some skim in it.

[jimsflies]

So Chris is that Internet Explorer 7? Honestly, that seems to be one of the least compatible browsers these days. You should try firefox.

[Mike]

Funny how that happens - faster

[Rabidgoose]

start dry and nudge it wetter after some time

[Rabidgoose]

until you get where you want to be

[jimsflies]

Good advice Chuck. Easier to start dry and go wet.

[Cash]

definetly will try that

[whitetiger61]

ok mine is working faster now

[schminksbro]

Ok back to lighting?

[jimsflies]

How about flow? What's everyone doing for flow...

[Cash]

Koralia #2 & #4 for power heads

[whitetiger61]

1 maxi jet 600 moded 1 maxijet 400 moded

[Rabidgoose]

Tunze6100 and 6045

[jimsflies]

I traded out my tuze 6055s for a vortech mp20. While I think it is more flow, I'm not impressed with it's "durability".

[schminksbro]

If money isn't the issue I think Vortechs are tough to beat. I am using modded Koralias and MJ1200s for now but I intend to upgrade.

[Cash]

Whats mods are for the K's

[schminksbro]

But the Tunzes are so huge and ugly:)

[Rabidgoose]

I 'm not sure I would like not be able to direct flow

[whitetiger61]

with the mods the maxijets have now i really like them.i had to dremel down my impeller to keep water in the tank

[schminksbro]

I have a K4. I put the prop for a sureflow MJ mod kit in it. It pushes something like 4000 gph now.

[jimsflies]

My vortech power supply stopped. They replaced, but I was without it for a couple weeks...due to a shipping screw up that eco tech made.

Then while I was in marquette it stopped working and I lost half of my branching lps. Apparently it needed cleaning...but gave no indication, just completely shut off the driver and sat there.

[jimsflies]

Andy are you running bare bottom?

[schminksbro]

No I have a SSB

[schminksbro]

I have like 8000gph in a 100. I could replace it all with the wide flow of 1 vortech MP40

[Cash]

Can you mod a K2 also? I would mod the K4 and K2 if I can

[schminksbro]

I don't think the prop would fit in a K2 unless you somehow modded the prop.

[jimsflies]

The thing about replacing all your pumps with one MP40 is that now you have lost the redundancy. When that one pump shuts down, your screwed.

[schminksbro]

The modded MJs put out alot of flow but it is directional, they reverse all the time, and they can be noisy. I hate them. LOL

[schminksbro]

your right, I think 2 MP40s would be better:)

[jimsflies]

I had the 6055's on a aquasurf that was a pretty slick setup. I probably should have left well enough alone.

Yes 2 mp40s would be better.

[whitetiger61]

i put 1 at the back of the tank on one side the other side at the front of the tank.flow is covered

[schminksbro]

I know Tunzes are high quality but I want to get some of the ugly equipment out of my tank. The Vortechs are so much lower profile and provide a much more natural flow. For every quality issue story I have heard I have heard another about flawless operation.

[jimsflies]

Yeah, I hear you. But unless you have an in wall tank and can hide the vortechs, you just end up with ugly outside the tank.

[Rabidgoose]

easy to find used vortechs though

[schminksbro]

Alot less ugly than a big honking Tunze or koralia

[jimsflies]

Vortechs can be heard as well. It's not a problem if you have other equipment in the area, but if you are running a remote sump and have a quiet overflow, you will likely hear them ramping up and down.

[schminksbro]

easy to find used Tunzes as well

[jimsflies]

That's where those 6055's were nice. Even in my small tank the two of them disappeared.

[schminksbro]

So what else gives the kind of flow that a VT does?

[Rabidgoose]

LOL.......those are from peeps getting out of the hobby

[schminksbro]

I am not advocating what I have. I don't have either. I just think from what I have seen the flow of a VT is far wider and overall better than a tunze.

[jimsflies]

To me after having had both the two 6055's and mp20, it's a coin toss.

Luckily I still have one more 6055, I just need to find a power supply for it. I will likely use both in my new 60 cube.

[schminksbro]

I have also heard of Tunze controller failure and not so good support from the manufacture. Any experience?

[schminksbro]

Jim, You mean a coin toss on the flow?

[jimsflies]

I should add that I had a neptune aqua surf controller on the 6055's. So one plus for the mp20 is it is doing the job of two 6055's and a wave controller.

But the down side is, when the vortech stopped working I didn't have redundancy.

[whitetiger61]

did i lose everyone

[jimsflies]

Yes, flow was pretty much the same. The two pump systems are equivalent in my mind. But each has a strength/weakness. MP20 less equipment...good. Two 6055's redundancy...good.

[jimsflies]

Rick - I see your post.

[whitetiger61]

i think im losing everyone

[jimsflies]

I think we just slowed down on posting for a minute.

[Cash]

Still here, just taking in everything

[schminksbro]

But you have to aim Tunzes so you don't blow the tissue off of sps. With the VTs you don't because the flow is so much wider and more gentle. I hate constantly worrying about the direction of PHs. I have seen sps growing 6" from a VT directly in front of the pump.

[Cash]

thats the biggest thing I am still trying to figure out. Aiming of the PH's

[jimsflies]

Well again, the plus of not aiming can be a minus if you want to aim. :)

Both are fine pump systems. Just different.

[schminksbro]

If you have flow from the bottom to the top why would you wat to aim?

[jimsflies]

Put that sps 3-4 inches away and it probably wont be as happy. Where you could aim the tunze right past it.

[whitetiger61]

jim
i stayed on page 15 for like 10 minutes

[jimsflies]

Were you seeing updates?

I'm only on page 5 because I have my view threads set to the max.

[schminksbro]

But the coral right behind it gets blown right off the rock. In a tank full of corals I find I am always trying to find that one little spot where I can point the PHs and not be pointing directly at a coral. So I don't have the luxury of aiming it as much as a struggle of where to point it so to cause the least amount of problems.

[whitetiger61]

i was then they stopped.i manually refreshed the page and it came back

[Cash]

I had to manually refresh once also.

[jimsflies]

Andy -How many gph are your modded pumps?

[schminksbro]

1600, 2100, and 4000

[jimsflies]

yeah, 4000 gph aimed at one spot is going to blow things around.

[jimsflies]

Like I said, vortechs are nice. But I don't think the perfect pump exists.

[whitetiger61]

ok well its time for bed..have to work tomorrow.this was very informative..cant wait until next weekend

[schminksbro]

so will 1600 or even 800. A factory MJ 1200 at 290gph will blow the flesh off of an acro.

[jimsflies]

Glad you could join us. We'll have a post mortum on what we can do to improve. Keep an eye out for it and let us know.

good night :night:

[whitetiger61]

i'll keep my eye out..great forum Jim

[Cash]

Definitely been informative tonight Thnks to everyone

[jimsflies]

Well yeah...if you put it close enough. I wouldn't say that you can put something an inch in front of the vortech and have it be happy. Might die a slower death than ripping of the flesh is all.

[jimsflies]

See you Cash. Thanks for joining in!

[Mike]

Vortechs are decent for sure

[schminksbro]

I'm really not trying to sell VTs. I am trying to explore the pros and cons. Tunze are better quality. I think most would agree. They are big and they have cords. VTs are small and they don't have cords but they do have the magnet on the outside of the tank. Tunzes are direct flowing. VTs aren't. I am not talking 1" but You can place corals much closer than with a tunze. If you take the comparison of a MP40 3000 gph and a tunze with 3000gph.

[Mike]

Tunze on teh other hand has come out with some flow monsters as far as output goes. I guess in terms of water movement nothing will move more water in a tank than a propeller style pump.

[schminksbro]

I just hate playing the aim game.

[schminksbro]

I have never come across a direct stream in the ocean either.

[Mike]

The low profile VT design is nice and each pump has it issues. I have owned both brands and agree that Tunze is higher quality.

[jimsflies]

I'm happy with my vortech. Just realize that it is better to have two powerheads for redundancy...esp. considering the vortech has now stopped twice on my since August.

[Mike]

I like the OM 4 way just because it varies the output between the four inlets.

[jimsflies]

I also have a OM squirt on my tank.

[Mike]

Even with the low tide incident I still like closed loops.

[Mike]

lower profile and I use spa nozzles on mine to direct flow.

[schminksbro]

I was just going to bring up the OM. My problem is that I don't want to tear down and drill for a closed loop. I need something I can add to an existing system.

[jimsflies]

While I like it, I won't go closed loop again. Mostly due to energy efficiency. The CL pump takes a lot of juice to run compared to the propellor style powerheads.

[jimsflies]

I also get a little nervous with that many holes in the back of my tank.

[schminksbro]

And you still have the direction issue although easier to direct.

[jimsflies]

You really have to play the aim game with the closed loop. You are totally dependant on aim rather than repositioning.

[Mike]

That is true JIm. I think my Barracuda is pulling about 200 watts. but it moves nearly 5000G an hour at four feet and I have it at virtually no head at all. It is like having four differnt powerheads in the tank that are constantly changing with the four way plus the pull into the intake.

[jimsflies]

Yeah... but you can push 4000 gph with the MP40 for like 25 watts.

[schminksbro]

and have wider more gentle flow

[Mike]

I guess the for this type of system (CL) an acrylic tank gives me a littel peace of mind.

That is all true to a point. I had twin MP40's on the tank and I get better movement (with the way my tank is set up) with the closed loop.

[schminksbro]

Define better?

[jimsflies]

Unfortunately, there isn't one perfect solution to flow. Each has it's pluses and minuses.

[Mike]

I could barely get the water moving on the end of the tank across the 6 foot span with the MP40's. I would have needed an additional 2 MP40's or to go up to the bigger Tunze pumps.

[jimsflies]

I believe that. The wide flow ends up lacking punch on longer tanks.

[jimsflies]

So what everyone's turnover in their display?

[Mike]

I get more vorticies with the closed loop on the four way because of the variations in force that occur when the drum moves between the outlets. The water force does change as this happens as well. The pulling force also adds a negative force so I get a push pull effect near the bottom of the tank.

The vortecs do that too but because the intake on CL is so much bigger it draws in water from a larger area. I also have two intakes for two loops.

[Mike]

My display in tank circulation is around 45X's and hour with both pumps on.

[schminksbro]

I am at like 80 times per hour but because of the directional flow I need that much.

[Sir Patrick]

I plan on running a closed loop to direct water flow across the bottom of the tank into a barrel roll, to take detrius over the overflows and down to the skimmer.

This set up for flow will give very little usable current to the corals in the tank though, so I plan on running my 3 maxijets on a timed wavemaker to give some extra randon flows to the rest of the tank, along with 1 modded maxi 900 running constantly on a 65 gallon breeder with dual corner overflows..

[jimsflies]

I'm running around 60 x per hour. But have been as high as 100x.

[schminksbro]

I have a wave maker but with the MJ mods they reverse too much. They also chatter. I ended up abandoning the wave maker.

[schminksbro]

My next flow purchase is going to be substantial. I just want to be happy with the decision. It will either be VT or Tunze. Obviously leaning VT.

[Mike]

If I did another powerhead it would be the giant Tunze'

[schminksbro]

A giant Tunze in a 48" tank would be a giant problem. :)

[Sir Patrick]

Gonna run non mods (2 1200's and 1 900) on the wavemaker, and 1 modded on full time.

Gonna use a mag 5 return and mag 9.5 on CL.

[jimsflies]

I guess my next system will use an mp20 and 6055. I'll use the 6055 across the bottom under the rock work to try to keep detritus in suspension.

[Mike]

I would use the 6305 on the Profilux. Max output is 7925 GPH at 68 watts

[schminksbro]

I would likely have to go with 2 tunze to do what one VT will do and then I have the "wart" issue. If I go with 1 VT I have the redundency issue but wider flow. I don't have a profilux.

[jimsflies]

Those two power heads will give me 3000 gph for about 45 watts in energy. Then I will use a closed loop to run the ca reacor, chiller. So energy efficiency will be pretty good.

[jimsflies]

Maybe good enough for an energy tax credit!

[schminksbro]

if I had a 7200 gph tunze all my rock would be smashed up against the oposite wall of my tank.

[jimsflies]

You need bigger rocks Andy...

[Mike]

I would love to see one in action though!

[schminksbro]

I need a bigger tank Jim:)

[schminksbro]

It would be cool in a lake or something, lol.

[schminksbro]

maybe pushing a boat.:)

[jimsflies]

You could put a trolling motor in your tank, Mike...

[Mike]

True :)

Not a bad idea Jim LOL

[schminksbro]

About the same difference