Coral keeping moral and ethical issues

[jojo22]

Okay so something was brought up in another thread, and instead of hijacking it I thought we could start a new one.

First issues at hand

A) Is killing a coral due to over crowding immoral

B) do corals "feel" things

C) if they do where do you stand on killing and thinning the stock

My Responses

A) Nope, it's no different than cutting down a tree in your yard.

B) Nope, pain is a neurological response and corals lack a nerve system there for they do not feel

C) I don't feel that way but even if they could "feel" they still would not have a soul so killing them would not be wrong in any way.

I also would like to point out that we regularly kill things in our tanks on purpose, pest hitchhikers, aptasia, algae, all sorts of things we do not want there, so is there any difference in killing a coral that we want to cut down on??

[Tom@HaslettMI]

My responses:
A) Not immoral but cruel and mostly unnecessary IMO.

B) To some extent yes. If you irritate a polyp it reacts which means it has the ability to sense its surroundings and react. Additionally, irritating that polyp will cause the whole colony to react suggesting a central nervous system. Remember corals are animals and not plants so cutting a tree down is quite different.

C) Killing to thin back should be a last resort. Many reefers would gladly buy, trade or take most (if not all) corals off your your hands. Newbies especially.

[MizTanks]

+1 what Tom said! I couldn't say it better~so I wont even try.

[jojo22]

Tom, in response to your reply to section B, do you thing that it is a nervous system, or simply each polyp reacting to the changes in their environment, as when one closes quickly it would create a small current possibly causing the others to close as a defense from predators.

As to the response of "cruel" why is that?? Do you eat meat, wear leather, have leather in your car?? Is the fashion in which these animals are raised and killed not also cruel then??

I only ask to see others points, I am of the view that animals are animals nothing more or less. Yes I love some of them, but at the same time do not equate them to humans to the extent that most of society do today. So I'm trying to understand.

The post that brought this all up is when someone mentioned that killing corals is "cruel", and I don't get that as they have no "feelings".

Also Tom, what is your thought on something like aptasia, is it any less cruel unnessisary just because it is not pleasing to your eyes? After all they are animals just the same as the $200 coral you might see for sale.

So what is the determining factor for which deserve "humane" treatment and which do not?

[Tom@HaslettMI]

I won't claim to be an expert in coral biology and don't actually know if corals have a nervous system. But from observation I'd guess they do. The chain reaction of closing could be caused by slight currents, but wouldn't the other polyps need some type of nerve to perceive the current? I could also be a chemical released by the affected polyp, but wouldn't that chemical release and reception be a crude type of nervous system? Additional evidence I see for a nervous system is feeding in LPS and anemones. When a tentacle touches/captures food it moves to the mouth and at the same time the mouth begins to open. My fungia will actually pass food from tentacle to tentacle to get it to it's mouth. Certainly there is some internal communication taking place.

I do not eat red meat, poultry, or pork (a pig is a filthy animal). But I'm also not a strict vegetarian as I do eat responsibly harvested and aquacultured fish and seafood as well as eggs, cheese, milk, ect. My decisions for this are complex but much of it is due to how these animals are raised and killed.

On the other hand... as a scientist I understand that the essence of life is "survival of the fittest". So, for anything to live something (actually many many somethings) must die. I kill many animals both intentionally and unintentionally, directly or indirectly. Mosquitos, PE mysis, ect. If it is valuable to me (or potentially others) then killing it is a last resort. If it threatens things I value then I'm more inclined to kill it (i.e., aptasia) but will try other means first (e.g., I don't kill spiders in the house I take them outside). With corals they are valuable to someone so why kill them?

Deciding what constitutes "cruel" and what is OK to kill is up to the individual and for the most part that's how it should be. However, I wonder if Jeffrey Dahmer thought killing people was cruel? Obviously he was OK with it. I'm a bit confused by your logic... people are also animals, so how/why are we different from all other animals? Is it simply because we can communicate our feelings? Is a retracted polyp not communicating how it "feels"?

[jojo22]

My basis for why we are "above" (for lack of a better word) other animal is based on religious views, I do not believe animals (of any kind) have a soul, therefor are of much less value than a human life.

I see your point on the nervous system, but I feel they lack the complexity to feel pain, thus requires a brain to the best of my knowledge.

But at the end of the day it is a coral, and if killing it is cruel, then keeping it in a little box at our mercy, where it will most likely die in a lesser amount of time than it would in the wild could also be thought as cruel, as we are killing it to make our tank pretty, and heaven forbid a crash, all that death. I just don't see one coral as haveing more "value" in terms of life worth than another, yes I like some more, and kill nuisance pests, but as a whole they are all of equal life value IMO, which is none. I see them only in a cash value, plus the ascetic aspect.

But I also do not feel that cows, chicken or other animals have a "life" value either. They are animals they where put here for us to use as we need, and if they have to be cramped until they die to feed us so be it.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

jojo,
We simply see things differently. You are entitled to your own value system and I'm not going to try to change that. However, I can't help but comment on some of the things you've said.

My basis for why we are "above" (for lack of a better word) other animal is based on religious views, I do not believe animals (of any kind) have a soul, therefor are of much less value than a human life.

Religious views are well and good but many are not based on facts. What is a soul, how do we know what does and does not have a soul? We can't dissect a cow (or human) and remove a soul, so how can we say animals don't have a soul? I'm not denying that souls exist (i believe they do). I'm just not sure how we can definitively say that animals don't have them. What about compassion, isn't that also a part of most religious beliefs?

I see your point on the nervous system, but I feel they lack the complexity to feel pain, thus requires a brain to the best of my knowledge.

Starfish don't have a brain... but they appear to feel pain. So, why not coral?

But at the end of the day it is a coral, and if killing it is cruel, then keeping it in a little box at our mercy, where it will most likely die in a lesser amount of time than it would in the wild could also be thought as cruel, as we are killing it to make our tank pretty, and heaven forbid a crash, all that death.

For me unnecessary killing is cruel. Would you swerve onto the shoulder to run over a squirrel? Keeping highly mobile pets in tiny cages is also cruel. But corals are not highly mobile animals.

Additionally, I think the average life span of a captive organism is longer than their wild counterpart. In the wild there a numerous predators, parasites and diseases that kill coral. Besides I think most hobbyists are not planning to kill a coral when they buy it.

I just don't see one coral as haveing more "value" in terms of life worth than another, yes I like some more, and kill nuisance pests, but as a whole they are all of equal life value IMO, which is none. I see them only in a cash value, plus the ascetic aspect.

Aesthetic value is still value, and as you said coral has cash value... so why kill it and lose that cash?

But I also do not feel that cows, chicken or other animals have a "life" value either. They are animals they where put here for us to use as we need, and if they have to be cramped until they die to feed us so be it.

This is a troubling statement. So by this logic you're alright with dog fighting, circus animals, shark fin soup, removing coral colonies to bleach in the sun to sell to tourists, keeping a yellow tang in a 5 gallon aquarium? What are your thoughts on threatened and endangered species, should they be saved or left to fend for themselves?

Again jojo, I'm not trying to rip you or your values apart but rather present my perspective. I think were having a good discussion but it could be more interesting if we heard more peoples views on these matters.

[jojo22]

jojo,


This is a troubling statement. So by this logic you're alright with dog fighting, circus animals, shark fin soup, removing coral colonies to bleach in the sun to sell to tourists, keeping a yellow tang in a 5 gallon aquarium? What are your thoughts on threatened and endangered species, should they be saved or left to fend for themselves?

Again jojo, I'm not trying to rip you or your values apart but rather present my perspective. I think were having a good discussion but it could be more interesting if we heard more peoples views on these matters.

Dog fighting No, I am very anti fighting as it inflicts unnecessary pain to the animal and while I believe they have no soul they do have feelings and undue pain is wrong IMO, circus animals I do not agree with BUT who am I to tell them how to keep their animals, I wouldn't do it but it is not my choice, shark fin soup is wonderful and something I enjoy when the chance presents it's self, removing coral colonies I also do not agree with as most are protected, and to cause something to no longer exist in order to make a souvenir is wrong in my opinion, future generations would probably like to enjoy them as well, but my views are not based on it being "cruel". Endangered species I agree with helping but once again my view is for preservation for future generations, a yellow tang in a five gallon, no just because it would outgrow the tank and fish have been shown to have "feelings" so again undue stress and possible pain.

I agreed on good conversation until some juveniles hopped in and started with the slamming, I for some reason thought there could be an intellectual conversation on this board without the name calling or snide childish remarks, unfortunately I was wrong, BUT I will continue with those who have something intelligent to add.

For your other statements, I see your points and respect them, but I think you are right that we will have to agree to disagree on those issues.

As for whitetiger, no I do not believe animals have a soul, but with the childish remarks made already I would be remiss to further comment.

But to reply to you statement on your dog. My dogs would die for me, and are trained in protection to do just that they are conditioned to protect under attack to myself and them with single or multiple attackers and when those attackers have weapons including guns, they will protect to their last breath, would I die for them, **** NO. My wife and children need me a whole lot more than I need that dog, and my loyalties lye with my human family first and foremost. I also do not feel that dogs understand love, they are loyal to those who feed and spend time with them, but if sold go right on to "loving" the next owner. True "love" is not so easily broken.

[whitetiger61]

Who is your God? Ted Nugent?

AMEN

Rick

[jojo22]

I have company coming in a bit, and I'm still getting ready, but I did see this and will reply tonight after they leave.