Coral keeping moral and ethical issues

[whitetiger61]

ok i wasnt going to respond to this post as most know how i feel on this subject from the other post, but i will give y .02 worth.. I think everything on this earth has a soul..i cant prove it but thats my opinion. I do not kill anything in my tank..I set my reef up to what i wanted and if the fish or invertibratfes happen to eat hair algae or aptasia.then survrival of the fittest. just like in the wild. thats nature and i set my tanks up to replicate nature.

I have never trimmed anything back tand just tossed it in the trash can and i never will..

As far as no other animals not having a soul or just being put here for our needs..most of these animals where here before we were..just in a slightly different form.. Do i think my dog has a soul..I know he does..He has done so many thing to show his love for me and yhou cant love without a soul.

Would i defend my dog with my life..you bet i would..as he has done for me many times, but thats just me..

Rick

[whitetiger61]

Who is your God? Ted Nugent?

AMEN

Rick

[jojo22]

jojo,


This is a troubling statement. So by this logic you're alright with dog fighting, circus animals, shark fin soup, removing coral colonies to bleach in the sun to sell to tourists, keeping a yellow tang in a 5 gallon aquarium? What are your thoughts on threatened and endangered species, should they be saved or left to fend for themselves?

Again jojo, I'm not trying to rip you or your values apart but rather present my perspective. I think were having a good discussion but it could be more interesting if we heard more peoples views on these matters.

Dog fighting No, I am very anti fighting as it inflicts unnecessary pain to the animal and while I believe they have no soul they do have feelings and undue pain is wrong IMO, circus animals I do not agree with BUT who am I to tell them how to keep their animals, I wouldn't do it but it is not my choice, shark fin soup is wonderful and something I enjoy when the chance presents it's self, removing coral colonies I also do not agree with as most are protected, and to cause something to no longer exist in order to make a souvenir is wrong in my opinion, future generations would probably like to enjoy them as well, but my views are not based on it being "cruel". Endangered species I agree with helping but once again my view is for preservation for future generations, a yellow tang in a five gallon, no just because it would outgrow the tank and fish have been shown to have "feelings" so again undue stress and possible pain.

I agreed on good conversation until some juveniles hopped in and started with the slamming, I for some reason thought there could be an intellectual conversation on this board without the name calling or snide childish remarks, unfortunately I was wrong, BUT I will continue with those who have something intelligent to add.

For your other statements, I see your points and respect them, but I think you are right that we will have to agree to disagree on those issues.

As for whitetiger, no I do not believe animals have a soul, but with the childish remarks made already I would be remiss to further comment.

But to reply to you statement on your dog. My dogs would die for me, and are trained in protection to do just that they are conditioned to protect under attack to myself and them with single or multiple attackers and when those attackers have weapons including guns, they will protect to their last breath, would I die for them, **** NO. My wife and children need me a whole lot more than I need that dog, and my loyalties lye with my human family first and foremost. I also do not feel that dogs understand love, they are loyal to those who feed and spend time with them, but if sold go right on to "loving" the next owner. True "love" is not so easily broken.

[jojo22]

I NEVER said it was Gods will, reading comprehension will prove that, I simply said that I did not think in cruel, inhumane, or unethical due to my belief, LARGE difference and one that a person should know before spouting off about "Gods will". Just because something is okay does not make it Gods will, it simply means that there is nothing in my system of belief that states it is wrong to do such an action.

Opposing views and scrutiny are very different from a useless childish attempt at humor.

Also I said my religious belief, one is arrogant to assume what another's belief is, I never said God, I could have been referring to Buddah, Jahova, God, Christ, Spirtis, Spiritual Gods, or any other number of "higher powers" of religious belief. While you where correct in your obvious assumption that I am of Christian following one should not assume this type of thing.


But instead of coming to a thread only to stir the pot and try to insult people, why not think hard for thirty second and add something of substance, instead of jacking up your post count with useless dribble.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Hey now everyone! Let's all try to play nice.

If the conversation continues like this I'll kindly bow out.

[whitetiger61]

I am bowing out..everyone has their own opinions and i respect that..this thread is done for me.

Rick

[jimsflies]

Ironically, we all fall pretty much in the same lines when it comes to the ethical issue of killing one organism over the other whether you guys want to admit it or not. Arguments about souls aside, I think for the most part we'd all agree that a human life has more value than an animal...(I know there are a few people who I guess would disagree...but in the face of death, I bet many of those would swing towards valuing human life more than animals.)

As reefkeepers we make these decisions all the time. Usually we can all agree on what is a pest and what is not. And have no problem taking action to eradicate the problem. Sometimes the line isn't so clear, e.g. zoanthids running wild in a tank with no good way to frag them out.

The OP has/had a good topic worthy of discussion. I don't believe this thread was intended to be a religious discussion, although it can play into it certainly and I have no problem (at least currently) mentioning religion/god/etc. While questioning ones thought process on why they feel the way they do is okay, it is not okay to attack each other for the way they feel. I really don't want to ban all religious conversation from the board. I feel we are all mature enough to respect each other's views no matter how much or little you agree with them. So, please lets keep this on track and avoid attacks.

[MizTanks]

Sorry jojo for any part I had in turning this towards religion~truly wasn't my intent~I guess using the word soul was getting off topic~I'm more interested in the nerve and no brain aspect of this topic~how can a coral breed if they don't have a brain? I also want to thank you for pointing out that I for one am just a tad bit guilty of being hypocritical~I've killed fish that were a threat to other fishes~self awareness reality check going on here!!!!

[jimsflies]

Clearly corals have some ability to act upon sensory input. They open when the lights come on, close when something touches them (self preservation), they spawn based on temperature, moon, tides, etc. I guess all this would equate to some sort of "nervous" system, albeit rudimentary. I doubt they feel pain or pleasure at least in the sense that humans do...after all we (well, must of us) have that big head on our shoulders for a reason.

At some point on the continuum from single celled organisms to human beings, a nervous system becomes complex enough to be called a brain. I know we have some biologists among us and maybe they can enlighten us on whether there a clear indication of where nervous system/brain lies in the scope of the animal kingdom. My guess is that we typically draw the line at vertebrates/invertebrates...Phylum Chordata? Still that doesn't necessarily mean they "feel" pain the way we do, but it means they have a central nervous system and presumably some collection of cells we'd consider a brain.

I don't think a coral "thinks" about breeding...it is simply a reaction to some stimulus that engages it to do so.

[jojo22]

Sorry jojo for any part I had in turning this towards religion~truly wasn't my intent~I guess using the word soul was getting off topic~I'm more interested in the nerve and no brain aspect of this topic~how can a coral breed if they don't have a brain? I also want to thank you for pointing out that I for one am just a tad bit guilty of being hypocritical~I've killed fish that were a threat to other fishes~self awareness reality check going on here!!!!

You didn't turn the thread wayward, but if you think about it LOTS of things we commonly accept as having no brain reproduce, many plants do, they produce pollen which is used for reproduction. What makes them do that if they have no brain, and Jim mentioned single cell organisms, what about them, they reproduce and OBVIOUSLY lack a nervous system and brain. IMO corals just do these things because it is part of growth, and growth is something that just happens, we don't use our brains to grow, so why would anything else.

And as far as closing and opening, trees do the same thing, they grow leafs and lose them seasonally for self preservation. So while corals are "animals" I think they have a lot more in common with plants than we give thought to.