lineage and names?

[Sharkboy87]

I just can't stand the incredibly jacked up prices they are coming available at, definitely keeps someone like myself who doesn't have/make a ton of money from being able to have alot of the nicer stuff Id love to have

[/B]Chort you are absolutely correct in your post. I have been waiting for this thread since before you were a reefer lol. The portionat the end is something i want people to think about.

They have allready got you half way there... They have used your own human instincts against you. You see a piece of eye candy, and you want it. The next step is purchase. Big mistake, they have succeded in ripping you off.

[MUCHO REEF]

Heres a good excuse for raising prices that I just loved when I heard it :

"Supply and Demand" LMAO.... the guy actually admitted getting the polyps for free, used to sell/trade them for $10pp, and eventhough more people had them from when he originally got them he had to raise the "value" to $25 pp because more people were starting to want them... and couldnt understand why I thought that was completely ridiculous!

Supply and Demand is a business factor, not a personal hobbiest factor IMO, and even still the "purchase" cost never went up, polyps are something that properly cared for will continue to grow continuing to increase supply, sure they all have different growth rates so you might not be able to "make a buck" as quick on say a "purple hornet" as you can a "radioactive dragon eye" but if you paid a dollar for each polyp of each why charge more... and **** why pay more especially from another hobbiest (ok you can say but the PH takes more nutrients and water change expense to grow then the other.... sorry that don't fly with me I got in this as a hobby to enjoy, the maintenance costs were to be expected and are required to continue my hobby and enjoy it, new growth and if I ever decide to actually sell any thing down the road thats just a bonus, although I would certainly rather trade/give away stuff then try to make $$ off it, as a hobbiest.... certainly not a means of supporting my family or even hobby for that matter IMO).

I really wish hobbiest would stop looking at this as a means of making $, and more doing whats best for the hobby, animals and people involved in the hobby!

I got into the hobby (started researching anyways) in October of 2008, set my 1st tank up in june/july of 2009, and while yes I have liked the "new" corals that are coming around and being available, I just can't stand the incredibly jacked up prices they are coming available at, definitely keeps someone like myself who doesn't have/make a ton of money from being able to have alot of the nicer stuff Id love to have

I agree my friend. Just good to hear that others feel the same way. I also agree with you that there is nothing wrong with a profit, but jacking a polyp's price from a dollar or two, along with a cute name, and who it came from, does not justify chopping each mother colony that is collected up into 1 polyp frags, and selling them for $ 15 to hundreds of dollars per polyp. That is not a profit, that is GOUGING. Fragging is not killing the hobby, excessive, improper, premature, out of this world prices for a polyp, not a colony is the problem. And many many people feel this way. Just remain civil and continue to share your opinions here as you are not complaining, you are simply stating how you feel and that is what these forums are for my friend.

Many newbies are now seeing and knowing what they never knew before this thread. Just remember, when or if these prices ever drop back down to $ 1 to $ 3 per polyp, or $15 to $ 25 for a 15 to 20 polyp frag on a 1 1/2 to a 2 inch rock like they have always been prior to 20005, you will never hear the words, rare, Limited Edition, lineage, supply and demand, new on the scene, new to the reefing community, just discovered and on 2 being release Joe Reefer. What many refuse to disclose is this, the suppliers didn't jack up these prices, the reefers did. We had tons of interest, we had tons of corals, new corals were being brought to the market every month. It has been stated right here in this thread that many reefers are leaving and have left. Yet the proclamations that this has somehow enhanced reefing is beyond belief.

The economic term, "Supply and Demand" which you spoke of, has been used an awful to justify these prices. So to those who hold true to these terms, I ask you this. If one is truly concerned about preserving and sharing these polyps so everyone can have them. And remember, that is your sole concern, then wouldn't it also hold true that you would reach many more people by selling them cheaper....then you would at these current prices? I mean since we are all really concerned about spreading and sharing them with everyone and preserving the reefs, am I correct here?


Mucho Reef

[Sharkboy87]

[QUOTE=schminksbro;100318]Somehow names have not prevented me from growing out corals.

Acropora grown from a single polyp


So this Acropora colony is the byproduct of a coral spawn in your tank? That is awesome man. Congrats to you on getting Acropora to spawn in your tank! Takes years of patience, and proper husbandry.

When corals are cut from the ocean and sold as "Colonies" they are merely "fragments" of the huge colonies they are cut from.

You are correct, they are cuttings/fragments of the mother colony. You are taking our words out of context. I think its fine to "frag" a healthy mother colony. **** i remember the days when people threw zoanthids and palythoas away because they were a nuisance! However, butchering tiny colonies up for auction to the highest bidder is just insaine.

Many, many corals die in holding tanks prior to being shipped to wholesalers and then shipped again to retailers. Many, many corals die during shipping.

Correct again. Its is due to impropper care.

To imply that buying rocks covered in corals and "assembling" an instant reef is somehow righteous or gives you the moral high ground because you don't frag is just not true.

I never claimed not to clip corals when necessary. Sometimes it is especially pertinant so the corals do not take matters into their own hands and eat each other. I dont butcher up colonies, glue them to frag plugs, and sell them.[B]

To imply that some huge percentage of corals that are fragged in captivity just die is simply untrue. If that were the case people would have already ceased to buy them.

This is not correct. No one really implied, its pure fact. Think hypothetically with me for a min. If there were a coral swap tomarrow and you had plans to buy about 20 zoanthus and palythoa frags from me. I am a procrastinator by heart... I havent cut your frags yet. I better get at it.
I cut your teeny tiny frags of 1 and 2 polyps each and glue them on to frag plugs. I dont take the time to dip them in iodine or any other form of treatment to prevent disease or sickness. (but you dont know this, there is no way possible i would ever tell you this. You most likely wouldnt buy them from me....
The swap ends, you take home your new investment. The next day you notice some brown jelly like substance being discharged from the siphonoglyphs of the polyps. You hurry and dip them to prevent infection... it is too late my friend. They will die in a matter of days.
This happens more often than anyone wants to admit.

I have seen countless beautiful tanks grown from small frags. It is very common.

I have as well, but the frag plugs were not visible.

I have read nothing in this thread that makes a sound case that names, lineage, or fragging has destroyed or even harmed the hobby or the corals we all love to keep and grow.

The facts have all been presented, people just have never seen it any other way. They cannot fathom what things could be like without the greed factor.

Corals are cut from the ocean for profit. Why are hobbyists making a few bucks off of something they bought and grew somehow more greedy than collectors making similar profits off of something they took from the ocean?

Well here is where i draw the line. Making a few bucks is much different than making a few hundred or even thousand....

[jimsflies]

Yes, Mucho we are still friends.

Interestingly I haven't really heard a good argument for low prices from you either. Because a newbie can't come in and purchase the brightest, most desireable polyps in the trade right out of the gate isn't a valid argument.

Reefing is a hobby. There are many aspects to it including collecting. There are a lot of hobbies that are similar. Lets say I wake up tomorrow and decide to collect baseball cards...I look around and decide I don't want to go buy common baseball cards from the supermarket aisle. No if I'm going to do baseball cards at all, I only want the really cool stuff...like a Honus Wagner card. Since its more than I can afford and I think they are charging to much for these types of cards I go around and tell everyone how evil they are for putting names on cards and charging more than I want to pay. That's ludicrous! Why is it less ludicrous to expect reefing to be any different?

Now you'll probably say "that's my point. Is not about refing its about collecting now." And to that I say if the goal is to grow a happy, thriving, colorful reef, then you have plenty of options to fill that little glass box with tons of colorful corals that are readily available for $1 a polyp...most even have a name. Having those polyps that cost $50 a polyp is not requisit to keeping a colorful reef and no one here has said it is. Sometimes just because you want it, doesn't mean you can have it.

This hobby is also about patience. If you are a newbie and want to be a collector, that doesn't mean you are left out of the hunt. You get yourself setup, buy some plolyps you can afford and start growing them out. Keep a look out for trades or sell an occasion frag so that you can then buy the polyps you want.

Or lets say your a newbie and don't want to sell a single polyp...if you set aside a little money...collect some pop cans or whatever. The polyps do well in captivity quickly become reasonably priced... the price ultimatley goes down on them because they are being fragged and sold at a frequency that makes them more common. The list of these that comes to mind (and excuse my use of names...not enough time to find pics of all of these...still waiting for my first edition of the Old Timers Encyclopedia of Corals so I can figure out to tell you what I am talking about without calling them a name) is purple death, green death, goochsters, mohawks, lunar eclipse, eagle eyes, bam bams, ring of fire, etc.

You talk about this hobby being about growing a reef...what more challenge do you need than to buy a few polyps and grow them out. Buying a bunch of rocks with 100 polyps on them and arranging them in a tank isn't growing a reef. Your signature line says it best "Anyone can build a reef.......the greater challenge....is to grow one !! "


In response to other comments you made....

I never said you have to have "High Tech" to keep a reef tank. I never even said it helps...What I did say is 'there are more options/products available' to consumers at all levels of the hobby today compared to 10 years ago. One reason for this is there is enough economic value in the reefkeeping hobby for companies to invest in it.

People leave hobbies...they come and they go. Many of the guys you often mention during our conversations as having left the hobby reached the pinnacle of the hobby (several were TOTM on RC). They could snap a few twigs off and buy anything they want. Cost of the hobby was not really the main factor. They lost interest or got busy with other interests.

I never said I was the exclusive source for ppes. Clearly Blane Perun had them before me. But I sold and traded a lot of them 5-7 years ago. And I know many of those have been grown and sold and traded many times since then. Even you got a couple polyps from me as I recall. Do you still have them?

Sorry I just refuse to buy into this mind set that fragging a coral before "its necessary" (not even sure what that means) is evil. I always found "it necessary" to frag a coral when I found another one I wanted to buy cause I'm not a millionaire either.

[Sharkboy87]

Mucho +1,

and Congrats + Much Respect to you my friend for never placing your name on a polyp and selling it for gain. You have been in this hobby longer than anyone i know! We need more people like you in this hobby!

[MUCHO REEF]

Jim, I have a question for you. I want to ask you and you alone. It's a 4 part question, and I will post it as soon as I know you are here. Give me a minute to respond once you say that you're here, OK?

[Sharkboy87]

Not trying to interupt.
Jim, it has always been about collecting nice pieces (Not designer frags with fancy names and color saturated photos.) That is what any hobby is about. It isnt about price gouging...

[Wy Renegade]

Wow, nice to see this thread take off. I'd really love to respond to several posts and will later today, but right now I don't have the time. I couldn't resist responding to this one however, as I think that it really proves the point.

I smiled the other day as I was looking through an old coral book (A Practical Guide To Corals for the reef aquarium) that had brown button polyps listed in the descriptions , I'm pretty sure they would be tagged Red People Eaters today, but with the lighting fifteen years ago they didn't seem to stir much interest.

AJ, unfortunately your statement is not quite true. A brown button polyp is a brown button polyp regardless of the lighting. In fact I still have lots of these and regardless of the lighting method, they are still a brown button polyp and don't stir much interest in the hobby (personally, I think they are kind of cool, but that is just me).

The green button polyp however is a much better example of the point you are trying to get across. Anybody who has been around for a while knows that green button polyps are just as common and grow just as fast as the browns. However, a few years ago, somebody decided they needed to make some money off of their tank, so they submitted their common green button polyps to ZoaID as Green Implosions; guess what? Yep you guessed it, the price went up almost instantly. Newbies posted up pictures of their green Implosions they bought for $10 a polyp. Those of us who knew better rolled our eyes in disgust or laughed into our hand at how the newbies got taken. I still see threads where somebody posts up how cool their green implosions are or how they "need" that cool polyp. Anybody need them, I got several frags right now, all home grow or aquacultured, I'll happily give them to anybody who wants to pay the shipping. This is an example plain and simple of greed in the hobby. Nobody can argue that Green Implosions improved the hobby in any way.

That said, I do still agree with what some of the others have said and will respond to those points later this evening when I have time.

[jolson10450]

my fist has lineage back to my arm and it happens to also have a name, black and decker face wrecker!

do i fit into the club now? haha

[MUCHO REEF]

Yes, Mucho we are still friends.

Interestingly I haven't really heard a good argument for low prices from you either. Because a newbie can't come in and purchase the brightest, most desireable polyps in the trade right out of the gate isn't a valid argument.

So are you saying the newbie has to wait for the prices to come down or go ahead and pay $ 20 to a couple hundred for a single polyp if he or she wants to be in the game?


Reefing is a hobby. There are many aspects to it including collecting. There are a lot of hobbies that are similar. Lets say I wake up tomorrow and decide to collect baseball cards...I look around and decide I don't want to go buy common baseball cards from the supermarket aisle. No if I'm going to do baseball cards at all, I only want the really cool stuff...like a Honus Wagner card. Since its more than I can afford and I think they are charging to much for these types of cards I go around and tell everyone how evil they are for putting names on cards and charging more than I want to pay. That's ludicrous! Why is it less ludicrous to expect reefing to be any different?


Not sure why people keep saying things we're not saying. I never said anyone was evil or going to **** for making sky high per polyps sales. What makes zoas different than those baseball cards is this. The baseball card owners didn't go jack up the prices 100 fold. That is the problem. Can't you see that? Now all the other baseball card collectors who hate you have driven the market prices so high, that many people who want them, now, can't afford them or refuse to feed the greed of those who jacked up the prices. Why is that so hard to understand? I don't get it, it's very simple.

Now you'll probably say "that's my point. Is not about refing its about collecting now."


Jim, before these price hikes, 95% of those keeping corals, were reefers. Now, everyones a collector. A collector of a tank full of 1 to 4 polyp frags. Where is reefing?

And to that I say if the goal is to grow a happy, thriving, colorful reef, then you have plenty of options to fill that little glass box with tons of colorful corals that are readily available for $1 a polyp...most even have a name.

And you're 100% correct. Those newbies can grow a reef with all the dull brown and green polyps with no color. But what if they want the things you have? Sure they can go buy a colony of browns and greens for $ 30 for full rock, but can they do that with any other color out there? No, so I guess the poor newbie is simply left out, correct



Having those polyps that cost $50 a polyp is not requisit to keeping a colorful reef and no one here has said it is. Sometimes just because you want it, doesn't mean you can have it.

But before these price hikes, which were driven up by the reefers, couldn't everyone go into a LFS and buy all of those now $ 50 polyps for one or two bucks a piece?

This hobby is also about patience. If you are a newbie and want to be a collector, that doesn't mean you are left out of the hunt. You get yourself setup, buy some plolyps you can afford and start growing them out. Keep a look out for trades or sell an occasion frag so that you can then buy the polyps you want.


LOL, so the only way a newbie can own anything beautiful, fully grown or colorful, he or she has to go through a process now to aquire anything of color. He has to pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars to set up a reef tank, then go and buy some brown and green frags or colonies, or, buy 5 or 6 1 polyp incredibly expensive fargs, then wait a year or so, hope they all live, now mind you, he or she is a newbie and is going to have some losses. Then, if every single thing goes as planned, he can then work his way up to buying more ccolorful pieces via trades or sells. That's funny Jim, cause youand I didn't start out that way. We went into stores and bought mother colonies, small colonies and also some affordable frags. So why should the newbie now have to go through this long drawn out waiting game, all because the reefers sent these prices through the roof. Wow, I'm shocked

Or lets say your a newbie and don't want to sell a single polyp...if you set aside a little money...collect some pop cans or whatever. The polyps do well in captivity quickly become reasonably priced... the price ultimatley goes down on them because they are being fragged and sold at a frequency that makes them more common.


But Jim, you and I didn't have to do that. This to me is a very poor and bad excuse to keep this prices high



You talk about this hobby being about growing a reef...what more challenge do you need than to buy a few polyps and grow them out. Buying a bunch of rocks with 100 polyps on them and arranging them in a tank isn't growing a reef. Your signature line says it best "Anyone can build a reef.......the greater challenge....is to grow one !! "


You don't have to start with a mother colony, you can start with an affordable $ 15 frag of 10 to 15 dollar frags just like you and I did back in the day


People leave hobbies...they come and they go. Many of the guys you often mention during our conversations as having left the hobby reached the pinnacle of the hobby (several were TOTM on RC). They could snap a few twigs off and buy anything they want. Cost of the hobby was not really the main factor. They lost interest or got busy with other interests.


Those are not the guys I'm speaking of though. Not sure about the pinnacle thing. Who cares about a TOTM. What does it really mean? Just that someone liked your tank and you got to post a few pictures and an article. Doesn't make them any different that the next guy other than maybe more knowledge and experience.



Sorry I just refuse to buy into this mind set that fragging a coral before "its necessary" (not even sure what that means) is evil. I always found "it necessary" to frag a coral when I found another one I wanted to buy cause I'm not a millionaire either.

AGAIN, YOU GUYS AREN'T READING THE LINES, YOU'RE READING BETWEEN THEM. There is nothing wrong with fragging.....there is nothing wrong with fragging. I have a problem with excessive, inapproprite fragging, premature fragging which leads to mortality. I have a problem with fragging every single new polyp which shows up and chopping it off to sell it for Gigantic amounts. I have a problem with names which led to sky high prices and false claims that something is rare which isbeing made to newbies everyday. I have a problem with reefers jacking up these coral prices and many of them in this for pure profits. Just imagine what this forum would be like if you have as many discussions in your forums.


Mucho