lineage and names?

[Sharkboy87]

My question was a legitmate one...Lets say we are talking on the phone...and want to discuss a particular zoanthid....how you would refer to those so we are both talking about the same thing? I'm guessing based on your reply, that you would call them a polyp with orange skirts? The problem is there are tons of polyps that have that description which look completely different. Without a photo or a name, how do you narrow it down? Using scientific names (Orange Zoanthus sp.) isn't goint to help either.



Do you think the guys naming them are much less random when they come up with the name? Yeah the taxonomy is fairly objective, but the species name is just a name. Pomacentrus alleni for example....alleni is named after Dr. Gerald Allen...we should start a thread about how the evils of narcissism as it applies to naming fish!

Speaking of fish...they all have a name and a scientific name. When you go into a shop looking for a fish do you ask for a Amblyglyphidodon aureus? I bet you get a dumb look back if you do! Of course not you ask for a Yellow Damsel. So then, why is it not okay for a fish to have a common name and not a polyp? Has naming fish been debated as the evil and that people selling fish under a common name also considered profiteering?




I disagree....more is being invested in bringing corals that have a higher resale value. It costs as much to deliver a brown coral to the local LFS from australia as it does a colorful one. A brown variation counts the same against quotas as a colorful one. Therefore, investing in education and equipment for the divers, helps assure that the box of corals can have the maximum value. There is no way you can tell me that the corals being sold today haven't on average become a lot nicer than the average coral seen in the hobby a few years ago.



What I see is 95% of the people in this industry are hobbyists. They hobbyists that are selling these corals so that they can continue to collect and help pay for their hobby. Sorry, I don't see a problem with this. It comes down to simple economics: supply and demand.

LMFAO actually when i walk into a fish store I do ask for fish/invertebrate im looking for by scientific name, that way there is no confusion... For example Geophagus proxiumus and Geophagus suranamensis look alot alike to the common eye, both are called the flag cichlid. I want to be sure of what is available. If they dont know what it is, they go look it up. If you work at a LFS you have an obligation to the community to be well educated in what you are selling. There is no way around "good ole fashioned" study and research.
I think the people who are disagreeing are justifying high end zoos and palys because it pays for their hobby, and calling it supply and demand.

[jolson10450]

i use this hobby.... to pay for this hobby... i made an investment to buy some higher end coral, paid myself back, and now everytime i need things such as salt, addatives, frag tanks for the swap, leds for new nano tanks, recently bought a camera with macro lens to take photographs of my coral for contests and my sales thread as well and it all came from selling the coral i have grown.

i base my price on it's value to me. if i think i am selling something to cheap, i wont sell it. A lot is based on supply and demand, that is how all business work these days. if you have a rare coral that grows 1 polyp a month and got 10 people that want it, as demand goes up, so does the price one will have to pay for it until there is enough supply out there to get it from many sources then the price will lower. i dont mind paying $50 a polyp for some z's and p's i only pay it if i think it is worth that price.

the only reason why i say any lineage to my coral at all is because people ask for it, why they ask i can't say. maybe they want to know what they are buying is real and not a color injected texas trash or something. the names i use are simply the names that i buy them as. I of course do the research before i buy but also i look for the different names that the frags are called because such as i can give you 3-4 different zoas but all of them are "radioactive dragon eyes" so which one is real? not many people know the scientific names of things so that is hard for people to get used to.

i only read the previous 3-4 posts so i am way lost and jumping into a pool here with my opinion so it may be out of place but so far from what i read with the recent posts made me post my 2 cents on it.

but in all reality like jim said.... it's all about supply and demand... weather or not people like it that is how it works with this hobby currently and its nearly impossible to change it at the rate it is going right now.


one thing i want y'all to do. step away from this current thread for a minute and just take 10 minutes and stare at your tank and how beautiful it is and remember why you are really here in the first place.

[jimsflies]

LMFAO actually when i walk into a fish store I do ask for fish/invertebrate im looking for by scientific name, that way there is no confusion... For example Geophagus proxiumus and Geophagus suranamensis look alot alike to the common eye, both are called the flag cichlid. I want to be sure of what is available. If they dont know what it is, they go look it up. If you work at a LFS you have an obligation to the community to be well educated in what you are selling. There is no way around "good ole fashioned" study and research.
I think the people who are disagreeing are justifying high end zoos and palys because it pays for their hobby, and calling it supply and demand.

Thinking about this on the way home, I think its ironic that this discussion seems to revolve around protecting newbs (and I assume also means getting more people into reefkeeping). I'm sure throwing around scientific names, especially if we actually had one for each zoa morph out there, would scare off as many newbs as high prices. Giving things a common name helps people new to the hobby not feel like they have to be a marine biologist/taxonomist to have a reef tank. In general it makes our hobby more approachable.

There is no way around "good ole fashioned" study and research.

I whole heartily agree with this. And this also applies newbs (whether its pricing or husbandry...or anything else for that matter).

BTW- I'm sure that poor kid at the LFS loves it when you come in.

[Wy Renegade]

Thinking about this on the way home, I think its ironic that this discussion seems to revolve around protecting newbs (and I assume also means getting more people into reefkeeping). I'm sure throwing around scientific names, especially if we actually had one for each zoa morph out there, would scare off as many newbs as high prices. Giving things a common name helps people new to the hobby not feel like they have to be a marine biologist/taxonomist to have a reef tank. In general it makes our hobby more approachable.

I whole heartily agree with this. And this also applies newbs (whether its pricing or husbandry...or anything else for that matter).

BTW- I'm sure that poor kid at the LFS loves it when you come in.

I thought it was revolving around the almighty $$$ and how some use the hobby to make it? LOL. As for using scientific names to identify zoas, its never going to happen. In part because DNA research has shown that there is a tremendous number of zoas that are all morphs of the same species. For example, PPE are a Zoanthus giganticus, yet so is true RPE. Saying you want a Zoanthus giganticus is not going to get you a PPE, Nor will saying that you want purple Z. giganticus, as there are now several different purple PPE morphs. those who say that we should be using scientific names are simply wanna be marine biologist/taxonomist who haven't truly done their research on the subject - IMO.

[jimsflies]

I thought it was revolving around the almighty $$$ and how some use the hobby to make it? LOL.

Well, it sort of became that. I started out talking about names and lineage. Which quickly turned into how names and lineage is the reason prices are so high. And then just became about how evil people are that try to recover their costs or god forbid make a buck.

I still believe that naming isn't the problem....if we have a problem. The hobby has changed and certainly from a consumer standpoint, prices haven't gotten better. Forums, digital photography, and wet bandsaws have as more to do with it than the names...which doesn't mean they're evil either . But that's not all bad news...I firmly believe that innovation and selection have been improved as a result of the overall increase in money being spent on this hobby.

[MUCHO REEF]

Jim, I have stated it many times over and over again my friend. I, nor anyone else has call anyone evil or said that they were evil or that this practice is evil. Just a clarification.

Thank you Chort55. Supply and demand is nothing more than an excuse as I, you, Wy Renegade and others have stated.

[jimsflies]

Jim, I have stated it many times over and over again my friend. I, nor anyone else has call anyone evil or said that they were evil or that this practice is evil. Just a clarification.

Just my one word summary for the way the seller side is being portrayed. Name calling is easier after all...

[MUCHO REEF]

Bad excuse, LOL