lineage and names?

[MUCHO REEF]

my fist has lineage back to my arm and it happens to also have a name, black and decker face wrecker!

do i fit into the club now? haha

ROTFL, thank you, I haven't laugh that are all year. BIG UP !!!!!!!

[jimsflies]

Green with red tips Euphyllia anchora for example. That would indicate a green hammer coral with red tip polyps. Not the "Tyree LE Bleeding Hulk Hammer." It even comes jam packed with EXTRA zooxanthellae, unlike any coral ever pulled out of the ocean. Do you see what I am saying Jim? Things have always had common names or trade names, but there was nothing wrong with the system before, why fix what isn't broken....?

To my knowledge at this present day there is not a dichotomous key for zoanthids. Making classification often times very tough. Zoanthus sp. and Palythoa sp. alike were called just that. Often times DNA testing is required to truly find out what type of Zoanthus species it is, as they can look the same to the naked eye. However, there is a huge difference between some species such as Zoanthus gigantus, and Zoanthus sociatus, even Zoanthus sp. and Palythoa sp.. I would be willing to bet money on the fact that a huge amount of folks who price gouge would not even be able to tell me the difference between a zoanthid and a palythoa.

My question was a legitmate one...Lets say we are talking on the phone...and want to discuss a particular zoanthid....how you would refer to those so we are both talking about the same thing? I'm guessing based on your reply, that you would call them a polyp with orange skirts? The problem is there are tons of polyps that have that description which look completely different. Without a photo or a name, how do you narrow it down? Using scientific names (Orange Zoanthus sp.) isn't goint to help either.

Although classification of zoanthids has not been top priority in the scientific world, people are working on trying to get it all figured out. It's not happening fast enough for some of the people in the aquarium trade, so they have taken it upon themselves to put their own name on a zoa or paly. You are not a scientist
There is going to be alot of angy people out there when their names get changed, once proper classification has taken priority.

Do you think the guys naming them are much less random when they come up with the name? Yeah the taxonomy is fairly objective, but the species name is just a name. Pomacentrus alleni for example....alleni is named after Dr. Gerald Allen...we should start a thread about how the evils of narcissism as it applies to naming fish!

Speaking of fish...they all have a name and a scientific name. When you go into a shop looking for a fish do you ask for a Amblyglyphidodon aureus? I bet you get a dumb look back if you do! Of course not you ask for a Yellow Damsel. So then, why is it not okay for a fish to have a common name and not a polyp? Has naming fish been debated as the evil and that people selling fish under a common name also considered profiteering?

One thing i forgot to mention above in my previous post is the fact that it does not cost a diver in a third world country any more to cut a piece of coral off a rock today than it did 20 years ago.

I disagree....more is being invested in bringing corals that have a higher resale value. It costs as much to deliver a brown coral to the local LFS from australia as it does a colorful one. A brown variation counts the same against quotas as a colorful one. Therefore, investing in education and equipment for the divers, helps assure that the box of corals can have the maximum value. There is no way you can tell me that the corals being sold today haven't on average become a lot nicer than the average coral seen in the hobby a few years ago.

Greedy people are to blame. Reefing was never and still is not ment to be a means to pay for your mortgage.......

What I see is 95% of the people in this industry are hobbyists. They hobbyists that are selling these corals so that they can continue to collect and help pay for their hobby. Sorry, I don't see a problem with this. It comes down to simple economics: supply and demand.

[Wy Renegade]

What I see is 95% of the people in this industry are hobbyists. They hobbyists that are selling these corals so that they can continue to collect and help pay for their hobby. Sorry, I don't see a problem with this. It comes down to simple economics: supply and demand.

While I agree with part of what you said Jim, I have to disagree on this one. I have a problem with somebody making $10 a polyp on something like Green Implosions. Thats not supply and demand - its greed and hype or taking advantage of those who don't know any better.

[jimsflies]

I have a problem with excessive, inapproprite fragging, premature fragging which leads to mortality.

Who decides this? We had a lot of small frags for the CR Growout Contest. Over 250 frags in total with only a few polyps each. Most of which are thriving now.

I see no one marketing rare corals specifically to newbies. Read my post...not between the lines....lots of info addressing this poor newbie issue. Your newbie buddy dabbling in the rare stuff is a future profiteers in the making if you ask me.

These high priced polyps are collector corals. If you are not a collector, then wait till they become more available. The best thing a newbie can do is join CR and other reef forums to educate themselves not only on how to care for a reef but also to figure out what a fair price is (or should I say market price...since you don't think any price is fair).

[MUCHO REEF]

My question was a legitmate one...Lets say we are talking on the phone...and want to discuss a particular zoanthid....how you would refer to those so we are both talking about the same thing? I'm guessing based on your reply, that you would call them a polyp with orange skirts? The problem is there are tons of polyps that have that description which look completely different. Without a photo or a name, how do you narrow it down? Using scientific names (Orange Zoanthus sp.) isn't goint to help either.


JIM, how did we do it prior to 2005? Tell me, when I brought you some polyps from my house, and for the record, I have been to your place a few times. So again, how did I bring you those colorful polyps? You told me what colors you wanted, and I brougth them. The only reason you need names today is for resale. How is it possible that I grew and entire reef and didn't know the name of a single polyp? How did I aquire them, without knowing single name? How many frag swaps did you and I attend together all over this state, and we never had names? You know why everyone needs to know the names now or have a name? Cause they are so darn expesive, that's why. Back in the day, we took pictures with 35 mm camera. We were reefers back then, now everyone is a collector. A collector of a tank full of frag plugs. That's not reefing, that's fragging.



Speaking of fish...they all have a name and a scientific name. When you go into a shop looking for a fish do you ask for a Amblyglyphidodon aureus? I bet you get a dumb look back if you do! Of course not you ask for a Yellow Damsel. So then, why is it not okay for a fish to have a common name and not a polyp?


Because fish have always had name. And naming a damsel doesn't shot the price from $ 15 for a damsel, all the way up to $ 500, all because someone named it.


Has naming fish been debated as the evil and that people selling fish under a common name also considered profiteering?


Again, NO ONE IS EVIL FOR FRAGGING



I disagree....more is being invested in bringing corals that have a higher resale value. It costs as much to deliver a brown coral to the local LFS from australia as it does a colorful one. A brown variation counts the same against quotas as a colorful one. Therefore, investing in education and equipment for the divers, helps assure that the box of corals can have the maximum value. There is no way you can tell me that the corals being sold today haven't on average become a lot nicer than the average coral seen in the hobby a few years ago.


LOL, Jim, that's business. Pick a commodity, any commodity, but pick a cheap one. Now jack the price up 300 %, of course you're gonna see new investers, buyers, sellers, new business getting into the game.


What I see is 95% of the people in this industry are hobbyists. They hobbyists that are selling these corals so that they can continue to collect and help pay for their hobby. Sorry, I don't see a problem with this. It comes down to simple economics: supply and demand.

I disagree 100 %. If 95 % are reefers, why aren't they involed with creating any threads, responding to any threads or sharing any knowledge as REEFERS?

[Sharkboy87]

My question was a legitmate one...Lets say we are talking on the phone...and want to discuss a particular zoanthid....how you would refer to those so we are both talking about the same thing? I'm guessing based on your reply, that you would call them a polyp with orange skirts? The problem is there are tons of polyps that have that description which look completely different. Without a photo or a name, how do you narrow it down? Using scientific names (Orange Zoanthus sp.) isn't goint to help either.



Do you think the guys naming them are much less random when they come up with the name? Yeah the taxonomy is fairly objective, but the species name is just a name. Pomacentrus alleni for example....alleni is named after Dr. Gerald Allen...we should start a thread about how the evils of narcissism as it applies to naming fish!

Speaking of fish...they all have a name and a scientific name. When you go into a shop looking for a fish do you ask for a Amblyglyphidodon aureus? I bet you get a dumb look back if you do! Of course not you ask for a Yellow Damsel. So then, why is it not okay for a fish to have a common name and not a polyp? Has naming fish been debated as the evil and that people selling fish under a common name also considered profiteering?




I disagree....more is being invested in bringing corals that have a higher resale value. It costs as much to deliver a brown coral to the local LFS from australia as it does a colorful one. A brown variation counts the same against quotas as a colorful one. Therefore, investing in education and equipment for the divers, helps assure that the box of corals can have the maximum value. There is no way you can tell me that the corals being sold today haven't on average become a lot nicer than the average coral seen in the hobby a few years ago.



What I see is 95% of the people in this industry are hobbyists. They hobbyists that are selling these corals so that they can continue to collect and help pay for their hobby. Sorry, I don't see a problem with this. It comes down to simple economics: supply and demand.

LMFAO actually when i walk into a fish store I do ask for fish/invertebrate im looking for by scientific name, that way there is no confusion... For example Geophagus proxiumus and Geophagus suranamensis look alot alike to the common eye, both are called the flag cichlid. I want to be sure of what is available. If they dont know what it is, they go look it up. If you work at a LFS you have an obligation to the community to be well educated in what you are selling. There is no way around "good ole fashioned" study and research.
I think the people who are disagreeing are justifying high end zoos and palys because it pays for their hobby, and calling it supply and demand.

[MUCHO REEF]

While I agree with part of what you said Jim, I have to disagree on this one. I have a problem with somebody making $10 a polyp on something like Green Implosions. Thats not supply and demand - its greed and hype or taking advantage of those who don't know any better.

Thank you. I don't want everyone or anyone for that matter to agree with anything I say. I just want someone to "GET IT". Wy renegade, even if you don't agree with me or anything else I say on this topic, you "GET IT", and you just stated so above.

This taking advantage of newbies and those who are not informed or educated enough yet has to stop. That's all I'm saying.


Mucho Reef

[Sharkboy87]

The best thing a newbie can do is join CR and other reef forums to educate themselves not only on how to care for a reef but also to figure out what a fair price is (or should I say market price...since you don't think any price is fair).

I disagree 100% here. If this were the year prior to 2005 i would say yes. However, there is simply too much garbage and inadequate information on these forums now. Its like telling a 16 year old who is capable of reproducing to go watch pornography to see how to its done.... Innocence is ment to be preserved. Again I hate to be old fashioned, but READ A BOOK! Figure things out on your own, ask for help when help is needed.

[Sharkboy87]

Thank you. I don't want everyone or anyone for that matter to agree with anything I say. I just want someone to "GET IT". Wy renegade, even if you don't agree with me or anything else I say on this topic, you "GET IT", and you just stated so above.

This taking advantage of newbies and those who are not informed or educated enough yet has to stop. That's all I'm saying.


Mucho Reef

Agreed

[jolson10450]

i use this hobby.... to pay for this hobby... i made an investment to buy some higher end coral, paid myself back, and now everytime i need things such as salt, addatives, frag tanks for the swap, leds for new nano tanks, recently bought a camera with macro lens to take photographs of my coral for contests and my sales thread as well and it all came from selling the coral i have grown.

i base my price on it's value to me. if i think i am selling something to cheap, i wont sell it. A lot is based on supply and demand, that is how all business work these days. if you have a rare coral that grows 1 polyp a month and got 10 people that want it, as demand goes up, so does the price one will have to pay for it until there is enough supply out there to get it from many sources then the price will lower. i dont mind paying $50 a polyp for some z's and p's i only pay it if i think it is worth that price.

the only reason why i say any lineage to my coral at all is because people ask for it, why they ask i can't say. maybe they want to know what they are buying is real and not a color injected texas trash or something. the names i use are simply the names that i buy them as. I of course do the research before i buy but also i look for the different names that the frags are called because such as i can give you 3-4 different zoas but all of them are "radioactive dragon eyes" so which one is real? not many people know the scientific names of things so that is hard for people to get used to.

i only read the previous 3-4 posts so i am way lost and jumping into a pool here with my opinion so it may be out of place but so far from what i read with the recent posts made me post my 2 cents on it.

but in all reality like jim said.... it's all about supply and demand... weather or not people like it that is how it works with this hobby currently and its nearly impossible to change it at the rate it is going right now.


one thing i want y'all to do. step away from this current thread for a minute and just take 10 minutes and stare at your tank and how beautiful it is and remember why you are really here in the first place.