lineage and names?

[Sharkboy87]

Mucho, When are you going to post the article for all of us to read?

[MUCHO REEF]

I agree Wy Renegade, so much is being missed. Giving is a choice, if someone doesn't give, that's fine, no one should have a problem with that. If they do, then I have a problem with them.

I do not like to name names or blast people, that's not my forte, but it is blantantly clear and it's all over the net and boards that this is the new gig for fast money. I have heard it, I have seen people standing in front of me when I use to frequent all the LFS. They would come in with no knowledge of reefing at all and discuss how they can set up a tank, buy some colonies, chop them up, to go buy new video games. And that was 3 years ago.

Keep the hobby a hobby.

[Sharkboy87]

Why should anyone new to the hobby or seasoned alike have to get ripped off to learn a lesson?

Should I or anyone else need to be taught a lesson before we start reefing?

[MUCHO REEF]

Mucho, When are you going to post the article for all of us to read?

Durr .... not sure now.

[Rabidgoose]

I agree Wy Renegade, so much is being missed. Giving is a choice, if someone doesn't give, that's fine, no one should have a problem with that. If they do, then I have a problem with them.

I do not like to name names or blast people, that's not my forte, but it is blantantly clear and it's all over the net and boards that this is the new gig for fast money. I have heard it, I have seen people standing in front of me when I use to frequent all the LFS. They would come in with no knowledge of reefing at all and discuss how they can set up a tank, buy some colonies, chop them up, to go buy new video games. And that was 3 years ago.

Keep the hobby a hobby.

Yes, I agree MUCHO. I have sold cheap or given away frags to people that have turned around and sold them within a week of getting them from me. No more than 6 months after that they are out of the hobby. I think alot that have been in the hobby for any length of time could tell a similar story when trying to help out a fellow reefer. I sell very little any more and share with people that show a passion for the hobby.

Do the high prices upset me?....no....they astound me. I wait for the prices to come down or I simply live without that coral.
Patience has always been a big factor in this hobby....it unfortunately pertains to purchasing corals as well.

chuck

[MUCHO REEF]

I have given away hundreds, if not thousands of dollars in zoas and plays along with a few crazy ricordea away and sold some for $ 15 for 20 polyps on 2 inch frags. One guy, who is on this board, was completely shocked when I gave him my prices, and he was standing in front of my tank with his girlfriend. Both were in shock at my prices, and yes, this was long after the skyhigh price hike on zoas and palys. But once lineage, high prices, naming etc began, I stopped selling. Why? I sold a reefer some frags for little or nothing, even gave this person some nice size free frags. What did this person do, turned around and photographed them and placed them on our reefing site and made money off of them. This is what these names and these prices have done to this hobby. Corals, ah eer, I mean quick currency, is the new game in town. This is not good for the hobby.

[schminksbro]

Mucho, The side of the argument that disagrees with your position has made some very valid points. These points have been corroborated with evidence. The decision to ignore these facts does not make them less true.

1. In an earlier post you wrote "I remember when people were throwing zoanthids away"

2. In this post you wrote "I truly hope all are around when prices drop back to a dollar or 2 per polyp. Just watch how many of those people who claim to be selling to preserve the reefs and little to no profits. They will begin to run from this hobby like OJ in a Bronco".

These 2 statements are very important because they corroborate what I and several others have been trying to communicate to you. When people were throwing zoas away they were not desirable. There was an abundant supply with little demand. With the increased variety of colorful zoanthids introduced to the market demand has increased. This is evidenced by people buying them and buying them at high prices. Not only have zoas become more desirable but the number of hobbyists has increased. This puts even more demand on the product.
In statement 2 you make another point that I have been trying to get across. If there is no profit there is no hobby. Because you disagree with this fact does not make it untrue.
3. In this post you make the statement "I'm just waiting to hear one common sense reason, just one to justify these prices"
You sir have justified them yourself in statement 1 and 2. Again, just because you disagree with something does not make it untrue. No matter how many times you repeat your disagreement doesn't change the facts. The rise in prices have much more to do with desirability than with names. The name is simply a way to communicate that we are talking about something desirable. The first polyp named was a desirable polyp hence someone felt there was a value in naming it so that they could talk about it with other reefers.

4. In this post you made this statement "Many corals , perfectly healthy corals have died as a result of these prices". Many, many corals have died as a result of this HOBBY. Do you really mean to argue that back in the "Good ol days" corals didn't die in tanks? The success rate of keeping corals has never been higher than it is now. If all the frags were dieing then prices would fall as fast as they do. The evidence is quite clear. Corals plummet in price very quickly because people grow them and the market becomes flooded.

Hello and glad to see someone else post on this topic whether for or against it. I mean absolutely no disrespect when saying this, nor am I trying to be insulting or demeaning in any way. But I really think you need to read this thread in its entirety. I have read every single post here and the justifications for these skyhigh prices for a coral that has been in great abundance since the day I joined this hobby are absolutely RIDICULOUS. I would much prefer that those who are in this for pure profit/greed etc, would just come out any say it. There has always been a market. I mean I truly don't think people are reading anything here. Many of you keep saying there was no market, that is a blatant lie. How on earth did every single one of my reefing buddies all across this country acquire tanks full of zoas and palys? Where did they all come from before skyhigh prices?

Sure there is a market for these skyhigh prices, no one is disputing that. It's the profound affect it has cost across the board. For those of you who wish to pay these prices, then go ahead, thousands of reefers do not. It has transformed this HOBBY, into a business for anyone who wishes to make a dollar, and an exagerated dollar at that and many good reefers are leaving because of it. Many corals , perfectly healthy corals have died as a result of these prices. I have already explained how and why many times already in this thread. Even properly fragged corals by experienced reefers will some times perish, so for those of you who don't agree, that's sad. When an innocent coral, within a hobby, is morphed into cold hard currency, REEFING is then replaced with RETAILING. And this is exactly what has happened. What you're saying is, "hey, it's free enterprise, if you can make a dollar, hey, more power to you". What we're saying is this, "you changed the entire dynamic of reefing. It's no longer about giving and sharing. It's no longer about discussions and knowledge ( just look at every dead forum on the internet), it's not about aquaculturing for the sake of preserving the reefs, it's about aquaprofits for many now to buy a new reef. That will be our new excuse to aquaculture at these skyhigh prices, hey, we're saving the reefs. If this is true, you mean you can no longer save the reefs buy selling corals at the prices they have been for 20 years? Come on, I'm just waiting to hear one common sense reason, just one to justify these prices.

I truly hope all are around when prices drop back to a dollar or 2 per polyp. Just watch how many of those people who claim to be selling to preserve the reefs and little to no profits. They will begin to run from this hobby like OJ in a Bronco.


You said, "The value of an item is determined by how much an individual is willing to pay for that item at any given time. Clearly that is dynamic and is subject to a number of variables including supply and demand. "

Well, I'm an individual, and I'm not willing to pay those prices, maybe you or others choose to, but I don't. I have been all over the net for 5 or 6 years now regarding these prices. I have heard every excuse possible for these prices. When one is shot down, another one pops up.

1. Supply and Demand - The supply has always been here. Someone decided to name them, lie and call them rare, turned them into currency, and the prices shot through the roof. It had nothing to do with Supply. It was greed which created the demand. Anyone who was here in 2005 and doesn't see that, I just have to wonder if they are the sellers of these high priced corals or has some gain or benefit in keeping these prices high. Tell me, who says I would prefer to pay $ 30 for something that is only worth a dollar? Cause that is all they were ever worth, UNTIL SOMEONE NAMED THEM AND AND THE EXACT SAME TIME, PRICES WENT SKYHIGH.

2. Limited Edition - the funniest thing I have ever heard, "hey everyone, the ocean is only releasing 5 of these this year". Are you serious. I was in Orlando at a large LFS. One of the workers there came up to me and pointed to a 1 polyp frag and told me *********** was only releasing 10 of these polyps this summer and they just went Limited Edition by him. I looked at the guy and laughed. I then begin to share with him the fact that there is no such thing as LE. It is all hype and I know that you are simply telling me what you were told to tell me and everyone else who comes in this store. People, it is a marketing tool. When you see the terms, "limited edition, just discovered, new on the scene, just released, and now introducing, etc, you need to turn and run, cause these are keep terms which says, you are about to be taken. Newbies are been prayed upon the most. Many of them over the years and even recently have contacted me in total shock. There never knew about the past. Many have been taken to the bank when they showed me pictures of what they paid skyhigh prices for. And the corals were in abundance 20 years ago. What you are now seeing is heavy actinic pics, with super macro lens, screwed onto digital cameras. Many here have already stated this. So this thread must continue as it has opened the eyes of many, even those who were once all for these prices.

3. Then you have the one I just love, "what the market will bare". No, the bear is destroying the hobby. I'm a part of the market, I can't bare it, which is why so many business which I have supported for years have now loss my business. These sellers are not evil, they are not devils, they are not mean, they are not bad people, none of the labels which have been posted here.


4. Another new one, "Once the polyp is aquacultured and is circulated, the price of said polyp will come down". I mean it truly sounds comical. The hobby was just fine until naming, which lead to skyhigh prices. Now we all have to sit and wait, so far, 6 years, and prices are still high. Which is why I agree with Sharkboy on the boycott, but on a grand scale.


In closing, I just hope everyone is around when prices drop. You will see just how much aquaculturing starts to decrease in those corals with a price drop. Those doing all the aquaculturing in the name of "just saving the reef", will be the ones who jump ship the quickest.


Mucho Reef


PS, you are going to see high priced sellers all over the country who are going to come here in droves to help defend these prices and their profits. You will also see tons of those who are against these prices joining as well. I think that is great. I want this site to continue to grow even if we disagree.

[schminksbro]

This hobby is very difficult to make money in. The get rich quick guys learn that very quickly. The price of polyps drops so quickly that you will end in in a perpetual state of reinvestment. I have said before that is is a good method to build a coral collection but not a good way to make any substantial money. I just don't see the anger at a hobbyist that makes a few hundred or even a couple thousand a year selling frags. It seems kind of petty and I have much better things to worry about.

raptor, good to see you posting. However I think you are missinterpetting the info here. No one is saying that you should only give away your frags, no one is saying that you can't get a little back of what you put in. I'm sure, based on what I've seen you post elsewhere, that you, like many others, enjoy the hobby for the sake of the hobby and that you sit back, relax, and enjoy the view of your tank. There are those however, who don't. There are those who simply buy all the expensive high name corals they can find, anxiously awaiting the popping of the very first new piece or polyp so they can frag it off and sell it as quickly as they can. If you doubt that, all you have to do is look through the forums on any of the various sites; "How can I make my polyps grow faster?" "How fast do these grow?" Why have I had my frag for two weeks, and haven't gotten a single new polyp yet?" I could go on and on and on. The focus has/is shifting from how can I have a nice looking and enjoyable tank, from which maybe I sell and trade a few small frags to keep adding to my collection. Too, I have a tank full of corals on plugs that are sitting on racks and I'm sitting in front of it, not thinking about how nice it will look when its grown in, but rather how fast will these suckers grow so I can make some serious $$$$$ . Is that really what you or we want this hobby to become?

[MUCHO REEF]

Mucho, The side of the argument that disagrees with your position has made some very valid points. These points have been corroborated with evidence. The decision to ignore these facts does not make them less true.

1. In an earlier post you wrote "I remember when people were throwing zoanthids away"

2. In this post you wrote "I truly hope all are around when prices drop back to a dollar or 2 per polyp. Just watch how many of those people who claim to be selling to preserve the reefs and little to no profits. They will begin to run from this hobby like OJ in a Bronco".

These 2 statements are very important because they corroborate what I and several others have been trying to communicate to you. When people were throwing zoas away they were not desirable. There was an abundant supply with little demand. With the increased variety of colorful zoanthids introduced to the market demand has increased. This is evidenced by people buying them and buying them at high prices. Not only have zoas become more desirable but the number of hobbyists has increased. This puts even more demand on the product.
In statement 2 you make another point that I have been trying to get across. If there is no profit there is no hobby. Because you disagree with this fact does not make it untrue.
3. In this post you make the statement "I'm just waiting to hear one common sense reason, just one to justify these prices"
You sir have justified them yourself in statement 1 and 2. Again, just because you disagree with something does not make it untrue. No matter how many times you repeat your disagreement doesn't change the facts. The rise in prices have much more to do with desirability than with names. The name is simply a way to communicate that we are talking about something desirable. The first polyp named was a desirable polyp hence someone felt there was a value in naming it so that they could talk about it with other reefers.

4. In this post you made this statement "Many corals , perfectly healthy corals have died as a result of these prices". Many, many corals have died as a result of this HOBBY. Do you really mean to argue that back in the "Good ol days" corals didn't die in tanks? The success rate of keeping corals has never been higher than it is now. If all the frags were dieing then prices would fall as fast as they do. The evidence is quite clear. Corals plummet in price very quickly because people grow them and the market becomes flooded.

Can I call you Bro? Cause I think it sounds cool as it is a part of your name

Yes sir, I did say that, and it was true. Nobody really wanted zoas, because they grew so fast and yes, they were very cheap. But Bro, this is what you're not getting, and I am not trying to sound condescending here. Bro, demand didn't increase because of new colors, DEMAND INCREASED BECAUSE OF DAH MAN !! SOMEONE GAVE THEM NAMES AND FALSE LABELS OF RARITY SUCH AS LIMITED EDITION. With all due respect, I was here, I was selling zoas and plays all over the counrty. I have shipped zoa frags to the 4 corners of this country and I can prove it at $ 15 a frag of 15 to 20 polyps of every color you can imagine. Everyone keeps saying new colors are the result of these prices. Bro, pardon my grammer, but it ain't true. I have pictures of some of the most stunning colors from years that pre date 2005. You and I both know that I never or should I say, seldom if ever show or share pictures of my tank or any corals that I own or have owned. I'm not into that. I personally know many of the reefers who started with these names.They weren't naming new stuff, they were naming the same corals that have been around since I got into this hobby. I WAS HERE Bro. No one can tell me otherwise.

It was only when every Tom, Dick and Wannabe saw that these corals were now like gold, that the interest went through the roof, thus demand followed. But it wasn't because of new colors or new anything. Who is spreading this, cause it's not true and it's very misleading. Bro, I mean, just how many excuses/reasons are there to justify these prices? Come on, we are all in this together, these prices are running people and newbies away. Lets put the hobby and the corals first again.

My friend, I'm glad we are talking BTW. No one has a problem with a business making a profit. No one has a problem with reefers recouping his/her investments and even making a few dollars. You, I and many others agree on this. We have a problem with a polyp which sold for $ 1 before.......then someone named it.......( get ready for this now )........called it rare........said it was a limited Edition..........Peter Skyree is the only one that has them..........and now the price is $30 to several hundred dollars for a single pencil size in diamter polyp. This is outright silly and a major problem. This is gouging, greed or whatever you want to call it.

If you guys want your names, fine, keep your names. Me, I'm a reefer, I don't need a name and I can grow them without a name. Why? Cause I'm not in it to sell or resale them, thus, the don't doesn't mean a thing to me. I grew thousands of them, and never knew a single name. I know an awful lot of collectors on a dozen sites who have posted tons of questions as Wy Renegade said ealier asking, "what is wrong with my corals", "Why are they dying", "why won't they grow", "somebody please help me save my Jimmie Crack Corns", "why won't they open today", "what's this slimmy stuff". Many of these people know every name in the book, but they can't keep their corals alive. They can tell you the lineage, but they keep crashing tanks. They can tell you what every single polyp is worth on the market, but they can't control the algae that's choking off their polyps. They take great super macro 1 to 3 pictures, but they don't know why their polyps are wilting". Now I ask you again, what is more important? The cart is being placed before the horse my friend.

As far as my statement on the premature mortality of many of these corals, I will say this. Yes, corals can die on anyone, but I would give them a better shot at longevity with an experienced reefer who places the corals first, over Junior Polyp Pimper who purchased his first tank Monday, and is now trying to grow corals in it on Friday for pure profit, cause the prom is Saturday.

I have explained this as simply as I know how in layman's terms. No matter how someone tries to spin this, maybe some of these other guys weren't here, but I was. New corals and new colors had absolutely nothing to do with these sky high price hikes. It's but another reason to justify these prices along with LE, RARE, what the market will bare, supply & demand, just released, only 3 from the ocean exist, yadda yadda yadda. These are all excuses being use along with.....well....we have a lot of new colors because of these prices. You think? Slap a 300 or 3,000 % increase on anything overnight and yes, you're gonna see more of it everywhere. Why? Cause everyone wants a piece of the pie, the cheese and the almighty dollar. Made mostly off of newbies who don't know the truth, those who have bought into these lies, or those who have to have the next newest thing so they too can make money. Not me my brother. Nothing yet has made any sense and not because I'm trying to be mean or outright stubborn. These justifying myths have to cease. Lets play fare and I can listen, but I can't go along with hype and fiction.

I respectfully have to disagree 100% my friend.

Mucho Reef

[schminksbro]

Yes you can call me whatever you want Mucho.
If you really want to make a difference Mucho then buy a tank and take some of the thousands of incredible polyps that you undoubtedly have and go to the swap this weekend. Sell huge 50 polyp frags for $10. You will be everyone's hero. You will cost every reefer in the place who is selling coral at market value huge gigantic sums of money. They can all send their armored cars home. You will destroy the market and all the greed monster get rich quick scam artist coral murderers will lose interest because they really don't care about coral anyway. The prices in Michigan will collapse and we will all sing Kumbaya! It really isn't hard. I have seen many reefers collapse the price on many corals. Happens overnight. Of course you will need to have the corals that all of us believe to be new in the hobby or uncommon which you have obviously had since 1991. By the next swap (which nobody will attend) all of these corals will be worthless and nobody will even be able to give them away. Then we can all sit in front of our tanks with no reason to hang out with other reefers. It will be just like the "good ol days".

Can I call you Bro? Cause I think it sounds cool as it is a part of your name

Yes sir, I did say that, and it was true. Nobody really wanted zoas, because they grew so fast and yes, they were very cheap. But Bro, this is what you're not getting, and I am not trying to sound condescending here. Bro, demand didn't increase because of new colors, DEMAND INCREASED BECAUSE OF DAH MAN !! SOMEONE GAVE THEM NAMES AND FALSE LABELS OF RARITY SUCH AS LIMITED EDITION. With all due respect, I was here, I was selling zoas and plays all over the counrty. I have shipped zoa frags to the 4 corners of this country and I can prove it at $ 15 a frag of 15 to 20 polyps of every color you can imagine. Everyone keeps saying new colors are the result of these prices. Bro, pardon my grammer, but it ain't true. I have pictures of some of the most stunning colors from years that pre date 2005. You and I both know that I never or should I seldom if ever show or share pictures of my tank or any corals that I own or have owned. I'm not into that. I personally know many of the reefers who started with these names.They weren't naming new stuff, they were naming the same corals that have been around since I got into this hobby. I WAS HERE Bro. No one can tell me otherwise.

It was only when every Tom, Dick and Wannabe saw that these corals were now like gold, that the interest went through the roof, thus demand followed. But it wasn't because of new colors or new anything. Who is spreading this, cause it's not true and it's very misleading. Bro, I mean, just how many excuses/reasons are there to justify these prices? Come on, we are all in this together, these prices are running people and newbies away. Lets put the hobby and the corals first again.

My friend, I'm glad we are talking BTW. No one has a problem with a business making a profit. No one has a problem with reefers recouping his/her investments and even making a few dollars. You, I and many others agree on this. We have a problem with a polyp which sold for $ 1 before.......then someone named it.......( get ready for this now )........called it rare........said it was a limited Edition..........Peter Skyree is the only one that has them..........and now the price is $30 to several hundred dollars for a single pencil size in diamter polyp. This is outright silly and a major problem. This is gouging, greed or whatever you want to call it.

If you guys want your names, fine, keep your names. Me, I'm a reefer, I don't need a name and I can grow any zoa or paly given to me. I grew thiusands of them, and never knew a single name. I know an awful lot of collectors on a dozen sites who have posted tons of questions as Wy Renegade said ealrier asking, "what is wrong with my corals", "Why are they dying", "why won't they grow", "somebody please help me save my Jimmie Crack Corns". Many of these people know every name in the book, but they can't keep their corals alive. They can tell you the lineage, but they keep crashing tanks. They can tell you what every single polyp is worth on the market, but they can't control the algae that's choking off their polyps. The cart is being placed before the horse my friend.

As far as my statement on the premature mortality of many of these corals, I will say this. Yes, corals can die on anyone, but I would give them a better shot at longevity with an experience reefer who places the corals first, over Junior Polyp Pimper who purchased his first tank Monday, and is now trying to grow corals in it on Friday.

I have explained this as simply as I know how in layman's terms. No matter how someone tries to spin this, maybe some of these other guys weren't here, but I was. New corals and new colors had absolutely nothing to do with these skyhigh price hikes. It's but another reason to justify these prices along with LE, RARE, what the market will bare, supply & demand, just released, only 3 from the ocean exist, yadda yadda yadda. These are all excuses being use along with.....well....we have a lot of new colors because of these prices. You think? Slap a 300 or 3,000 % increase on anything overnight and yes, you're gonna see more of it everywhere. Why? Cause everyone wants a piece of the pie, the cheese and the almighty dollar. Made mostly off of newbies who don't know the truth, those who have bought into these lies, or those who have to have the next newest thing so they too can make money. Not me my brother. Nothing yet has made any sense and not because I'm trying to be mean or outright stubborn. These justifying myths have to cease. Lets play fare and I can listen, butI can't go along with hype and fiction.

I respectfully have to disagree 100% my friend.

Mucho Reef