lineage and names?

[EMUreef]

I had a question for you all. Lets say for example you went to the lfs and found a small piece of what looks to be "my miami" or tyree bazooka joe or whatever. It looks exactly the same, there is no difference. What do you call it? Since it didnt come from the person who named it can we sell it as such? If someone says do you have lineage is the response no? With allot of these corals who are we lineageing (if thats a word) to? Say you went to a whole saler and and saw the owner of a website and you both were eyeing a coral and decided to chop it in half. If he goes and names it "super coral" can you sell yours as the same thing? if someone asks for lineage what is your response?

Im just curious as how this whole lineage and naming goes. I can see the argument on both sides but was just curious as to what the majority thought. Would you get made if you named a piece you found "super coral" and someone in cali sold there frag as the same thing and you know it didnt come from you?

In response to your last part are they both the same looking coral

[Sir Patrick]

"Lets say for example you went to the lfs and found a small piece of what looks to be "my miami" or tyree bazooka joe or whatever. It looks exactly the same, there is no difference. What do you call it? Since it didnt come from the person who named it can we sell it as such? If someone says do you have lineage is the response no?" -

I have to say, corals with names like Tyree, ORA, Garf, or any names with a company/stores name in it should have lineage to sell it by that name. The more common names, like whammin watermellon, miami, Bonsai, kedds redds, bambam, sunset, ect are just fine to use names as long as the peice looks identical.

If you have a peice that looks identical to a named item- that is normally lineaged, and it looks absolutly identical, like a Garf Bonsai- you can always drop the garf part and call it bonsai, or an ORA sunset Digi just a sunset digi, but you would then be putting your rep at risk. Many will see it as OK while others will not. I see it as OK, as long as the fact that there is no lineage is in plain sight, or common knowledge. I would definitly make sure buyers understood there is no proof to lineage.

"Say you went to a whole saler and and saw the owner of a website and you both were eyeing a coral and decided to chop it in half. If he goes and names it "super coral" can you sell yours as the same thing?"

Yes you could. And that would be proof of lineage. Now, if the store owner wasnt one of the big companies that commonly lineage or name their corals- dont be surprised when your coral is also circulating around different areas of the world with many other different names, as very commonly seen in the zoanthid collecting world.

"If someone asks for lineage what is your response?"-

Tell them the original namer and you split the coral if thats what happened, and if you have no lineage, tell the truth, and reply- I have no proof of lineage.

"Would you get mad if you named a piece you found "super coral" and someone in cali sold there frag as the same thing and you know it didnt come from you?"-

No, not at all......Its bound to happen. But if I was one of the bigger groups nameing corals and stamping them with lineage, and found this happening w/ a coral that clearly wasnt the same- I would definitly be bent out of shape. Especially if my, or my companies name was involved.

Lineage is a touchy subject to many, but not all. As a buisness, it gets even more touchy. Its not terrible for the small time hobbiest, but even then, can cause a stir.

I have a red planet mini colony. From what I would guess, it is an ORA red planet....but I never bothered to ask for sure from the person I got it from. Just to be on the safe side, if I were to frag it and sell some, I would sell it as red planet- and not indicate that its ORA. Even though it looks exactly like an ORA, and there is no reason to think otherwise, I never bothered to make sure, and I find it just as well to be on the safe side- just in case.

[korndiddy20]

In response to your last part are they both the same looking coral

yes

[korndiddy20]

so does this mean that if you are going to name a coral you MUST put your name in front of it? because if you just called your monti, chili pepper, couldnt anyone call theres the same thing?

[EMUreef]

i know this wasn't really part of the question but i suppose i can't resist commenting anyway.

IMO, i think lineage is just silly, and i dont buy a coral because it came from one person to the next. If i see a posting where the person is talking about lineage i move onto the next just because i know the price is going to be higher than what it should be.

heck i know the lineage of most corals. THE OCEAN. lol. Why should a coral be special because some guy picked it out of the ocean?

[MUCHO REEF]

i know this wasn't really part of the question but i suppose i can't resist commenting anyway.

IMO, i think lineage is just silly, and i dont buy a coral because it came from one person to the next. If i see a posting where the person is talking about lineage i move onto the next just because i know the price is going to be higher than what it should be.

heck i know the lineage of most corals. THE OCEAN. lol. Why should a coral be special because some guy picked it out of the ocean?

I agree 1,000 % with EMUreef. Lineage has absolutely nothing to do with reefing, yet everything to do with making more of a profit. Thus misleading the buyer to thinking he or she is getting a line of corals traced back to Billy Bob's Reef Emporium in Flatrock and they are the soul owners of this polyp. Lineage, Limited Editions, New On The Scene and Only a Few Are Being Released, are all clues that you are about to empty your wallet because of hype. This is called Marketing 101.

Mucho Reef

[HappyCoral]

If you buy it cause it looks good, then you will never be wrong. Save the money and buy a bigger tank to put all the good looking stuff I don't think there are any employees scattered through the reefs with spots claimed specifically for ora only.

[Wy Renegade]

so does this mean that if you are going to name a coral you MUST put your name in front of it? because if you just called your monti, chili pepper, couldnt anyone call theres the same thing?

First off, let me say that I agree 100% with Sir Patrick on his original answers, and also with most of what Mucho said in his response as well.

To answer your question (OP) is a little more complicated than that as well. First of all, there are specific websites that are involved in the naming of corals; for example coralpedia.com some of these sites will not allow you to put your name in front of the coral.

For example, I was involved with naming the Mandarin Orange zoa on coralpedia (Marvin and I worked it out together). It isn't Wy Renegades or Marvin's Mandarin Orange, its simply Mandarin Orange. The part I disagree with Mucho on is that names are always about hype. While I helped to name the original polyp, and actually had at the time a very nice colony, I never sold a single polyp. I just thought it was kind of cool to have my name associated with a particular polyp.

Further, I think you have to be carefully when saying my coral looks exactly like another coral, especially if you are basing that on seeing pictures on the internet. When the Space Monster paly first hit the scene, there was another reefer who insisted that it was her exact paly under a different name and the the founder of SM was just out to make a big buck off the Tyree name. Many agreed with her based on pictures that they were the same (even I agreed it was very close if not the same). However being curious (since I already had SM), I had her send me a frag of her polyp. Once I had them both in the same tank, it was immediately obvious that they were in fact not the same polyp. To be fair, I gave is several months to have the same opportunity to adjust to lighting and tank chemistry, then began posting pictures which clearly show they are not the same. However, based on the original discussion, many who do not have the two still want to argue that they are the same .

[MUCHO REEF]

I guess the problem I have and will always have with names is this. I was selling, buying, trading and even giving away hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of zoanthids and palythoas all over the country for $ 15 to $ 20 for a frag rock. They were loaded with 15 plus polyps of every color you can imagine, not a plug, for 10 years prior to someone deciding to give them names in 2005/2006. It just so happens that at the EXACT same time ( 2005/2006), prices went sky high from 75 cents to $ 1.50 per polyp on average, ( on the high end) to chop shopping and selling these white plugs with 1 to 3 polyps glued to them from $ 15 to hundreds of dollars for a SINGLE polyp. That's ridiculus !!! This had nothing to do with "supply and demand", "what the market will bare", "what reefers are willing to pay", and all of the other lame excuses I've heard. These sky high prices were DIRECTLY attributed to naming, and false claims of rarity. This is why you don't see wide angle photos of zoas and palys anymore on large rocks, yet only super macro pics of 1 to 3 polyps on a plug or 2 inch rocks. This is why I hate names, we got along for many many many years without them and thousands of people sold and traded all over the country this way, but now, many won't even buy something unless it has a name and a history or a certificate of aunthenticity. The reefers, not the stores nor the suppliers were responsible for this hype and these sky high pricing for a TINY FRAG or a SINGLE POLYP. Now, because you can pay your car note with a couple of sales of zoas and palys, you now have to have a name to ID them when you resale them and the LINEAGE to help increase the profit you can make off of them. Naming turned into price gouging which equal excessive fragging, premature death from excessive, improper and premature fragging.

I see more concern about names than I do actual care for the corals. I recently spoke with a very very well known book writer whom we all have heard about and this is what he said. He literally hates the naming of zoas and palys for the same reasons I listed above. And this guy is someone we all love. He stated that he can't say it in public as he doesn't want to ruffle any feathers, offend anyone or turn his followers on him.

It truly troubles me that naming, lineage and taking the best photos with a digital camera and eye candy threads, gets more attention than a discussion thread. Just my 2 cents on why naming and lineage are a total and complete waste of time. It's ok if we respectfully disagree. Great discussion BTW.



There is some good reading on Lineage and Pricing in the links below.


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...=mucho+lineage

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ght=mucho+reef




Mucho Reef

[Wy Renegade]

I guess the problem I have and will always have with names is this. I was selling, buying and trading zoanthids and palythoas all over the country for $ 15 to $ 20 for a frag rock loaded with 15 plus polyps of every color you can imagine, not a plug, for 10 years prior to someone deciding to give them names in 2005/2006. It just so happens that at the EXACT same time ( 2005/2006), prices went sky high from 75 cents to $ 1.50 per polyp on average, ( on the high end) to chop shopping and selling these white plugs with 1 to 3 polyps glued to them from $ 15 to hundreds of dollars for a SINGLE polyp. That's ridiculus !!! This had nothing to do with supply and demand, what the market will bare, what reefers are willing to pay, and all of the other lame excuses I've heard. These sky high prices were DIRECTLY attributed to naming, and false claims of rarity. This is why you don't see wide angle photos of zoas and palys anymore on large rocks anymore, yet only super macro pics of 1 to 3 polyps on a plug or 2 inch rocks. This is why I hate names, we got along for many many many years without them and thousands of people sold and traded all over the country this way, but now, many won't even buy something unless it has a name and a history. The reefers, not the stores nor the suppliers were responsible for this hype and sky high pricing. Now because you can pay your car note with a couple of sales of zoas and palys, you now have to have a name to ID them when you resale them and the LINEAGE to help increase the profit you can make off of them. Naming turned into price gouging which equal excessive fragging, premature death from excessive, improper and premature fragging.

I see more concern about names than I do actual care for the corals. I recently spoke with a very very well known book writer whom we all have heard about and this is what he said. He literally hates the naming of zoas and palys for the same reasons I listed above. And this guy is someone we all love. He stated that he can't say it in public as he doesn't want to ruffle any feathers, offend anyone or turn his followers on him.

It truly troubles me that naming, lineage and taking the best photos with a digital camera and eye candy threads, gets more attention than a discussion thread. Just my 2 cents on why naming and lneage are a total and complete waste of time. It's ok if we respectfully disagree. Great discussion BTW.

Mucho Reef

Mucho my friend, once again, I find myself mostly in agreement with you. But offer you a slightly different perspective. Here in Wyoming, corals are relatively rare, period. Like yourself, I can remember the days of paying $15 to $30 for an entire colony of zoas. However, those zoas were always brown or green. We never saw any brightly colored polyps of any type in either the local LFS or the not so local LFS (2 hour drive away). In fact, I can still go to my not so LFS (2 hours away) and buy a colony of zoas for $30 (in fact I just picked up a nice colony of PEs here about a month ago), however, these colonies are still either brown or green - no nice colors. I remember ordering my first frags of orange (probably Eagle Eyes) zoas from GARTH - we spent about $150 for several frags to get lots of different types and lots of different colors, and they all died, except the green and brown ones.

Since then of course, I've ordered numerous zoas off the internet, and yes I often pay pretty high prices, comparatively speaking, but I've also got colors that I would never have aquired without doing so. Unlike yourself I don't have an option to go somewhere to find something different and then offer it in trade. Therefore, I have no choice but to pay the higher prices. Even without higher prices, the shipping to get something to me, is sky high. I pay $70 to $100 to ship anything in from anywhere else, even Denver, which is only a 6 hour drive. Our local airport sucks, so UPS and Fed-ex prices are over the top, and USPS doesn't guarantee overnight to here from anywhere (even here). Now, that all said, I've also never gotten into the crazy prices I see things going for either $600 or more per polyp please! Thats just insane. I got SM before it was named and never paid anywhere near the $150 asking price it jumped up to right after it was named. But I also have over a dozen polyps that are sitting happily in my tank right now, not being sold. Sure, I could sell em and maybe make a bunch of money, could have done it earlier and made even more, but why? I like them, I like the colony look rather than the frag look, so I'm hanging on to them for now. Also, I don't want to deal with the peeps that are out there that will say, "the colony was DOA, ship em again."

To me, the truly said part of our hobby right now is what we've allowed it to evolve into - and you hit the nail right on the head with the part I've marked in red. People would rather show off/look at macro pictures of polyps than ingage in any discussion or learning about the hobby. I see people come in, buy up everything they can get their hands on, and then sale out at some out of this world asking price for their entire collection. Sad indeed.

But, the thing is we don't change anything by complaining about it. The only thing that will change it is for people like you and me (old reefers with the experience) to keep posting up the discussion threads. Many die away without even a single comment or with only a few comments, but some of them take hold and get others involved. Too many have turned away in disgust and thrown their hands in the air. Prices today are going up on everything - I pay over $3.00 for a gallon of fuel, I remember when it was less than $.50 a gallon, but those days aren't ever going to come back. We can't sit around bemoaning the past, we have to forge ahead into the future. Just my $.02 worth.