lineage and names?

[HappyCoral]

If you buy it cause it looks good, then you will never be wrong. Save the money and buy a bigger tank to put all the good looking stuff I don't think there are any employees scattered through the reefs with spots claimed specifically for ora only.

[Wy Renegade]

so does this mean that if you are going to name a coral you MUST put your name in front of it? because if you just called your monti, chili pepper, couldnt anyone call theres the same thing?

First off, let me say that I agree 100% with Sir Patrick on his original answers, and also with most of what Mucho said in his response as well.

To answer your question (OP) is a little more complicated than that as well. First of all, there are specific websites that are involved in the naming of corals; for example coralpedia.com some of these sites will not allow you to put your name in front of the coral.

For example, I was involved with naming the Mandarin Orange zoa on coralpedia (Marvin and I worked it out together). It isn't Wy Renegades or Marvin's Mandarin Orange, its simply Mandarin Orange. The part I disagree with Mucho on is that names are always about hype. While I helped to name the original polyp, and actually had at the time a very nice colony, I never sold a single polyp. I just thought it was kind of cool to have my name associated with a particular polyp.

Further, I think you have to be carefully when saying my coral looks exactly like another coral, especially if you are basing that on seeing pictures on the internet. When the Space Monster paly first hit the scene, there was another reefer who insisted that it was her exact paly under a different name and the the founder of SM was just out to make a big buck off the Tyree name. Many agreed with her based on pictures that they were the same (even I agreed it was very close if not the same). However being curious (since I already had SM), I had her send me a frag of her polyp. Once I had them both in the same tank, it was immediately obvious that they were in fact not the same polyp. To be fair, I gave is several months to have the same opportunity to adjust to lighting and tank chemistry, then began posting pictures which clearly show they are not the same. However, based on the original discussion, many who do not have the two still want to argue that they are the same .

[MUCHO REEF]

I guess the problem I have and will always have with names is this. I was selling, buying, trading and even giving away hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of zoanthids and palythoas all over the country for $ 15 to $ 20 for a frag rock. They were loaded with 15 plus polyps of every color you can imagine, not a plug, for 10 years prior to someone deciding to give them names in 2005/2006. It just so happens that at the EXACT same time ( 2005/2006), prices went sky high from 75 cents to $ 1.50 per polyp on average, ( on the high end) to chop shopping and selling these white plugs with 1 to 3 polyps glued to them from $ 15 to hundreds of dollars for a SINGLE polyp. That's ridiculus !!! This had nothing to do with "supply and demand", "what the market will bare", "what reefers are willing to pay", and all of the other lame excuses I've heard. These sky high prices were DIRECTLY attributed to naming, and false claims of rarity. This is why you don't see wide angle photos of zoas and palys anymore on large rocks, yet only super macro pics of 1 to 3 polyps on a plug or 2 inch rocks. This is why I hate names, we got along for many many many years without them and thousands of people sold and traded all over the country this way, but now, many won't even buy something unless it has a name and a history or a certificate of aunthenticity. The reefers, not the stores nor the suppliers were responsible for this hype and these sky high pricing for a TINY FRAG or a SINGLE POLYP. Now, because you can pay your car note with a couple of sales of zoas and palys, you now have to have a name to ID them when you resale them and the LINEAGE to help increase the profit you can make off of them. Naming turned into price gouging which equal excessive fragging, premature death from excessive, improper and premature fragging.

I see more concern about names than I do actual care for the corals. I recently spoke with a very very well known book writer whom we all have heard about and this is what he said. He literally hates the naming of zoas and palys for the same reasons I listed above. And this guy is someone we all love. He stated that he can't say it in public as he doesn't want to ruffle any feathers, offend anyone or turn his followers on him.

It truly troubles me that naming, lineage and taking the best photos with a digital camera and eye candy threads, gets more attention than a discussion thread. Just my 2 cents on why naming and lineage are a total and complete waste of time. It's ok if we respectfully disagree. Great discussion BTW.



There is some good reading on Lineage and Pricing in the links below.


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...=mucho+lineage

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ght=mucho+reef




Mucho Reef

[gablett]

Couldnt agree with you more mucho.

[Wy Renegade]

I guess the problem I have and will always have with names is this. I was selling, buying and trading zoanthids and palythoas all over the country for $ 15 to $ 20 for a frag rock loaded with 15 plus polyps of every color you can imagine, not a plug, for 10 years prior to someone deciding to give them names in 2005/2006. It just so happens that at the EXACT same time ( 2005/2006), prices went sky high from 75 cents to $ 1.50 per polyp on average, ( on the high end) to chop shopping and selling these white plugs with 1 to 3 polyps glued to them from $ 15 to hundreds of dollars for a SINGLE polyp. That's ridiculus !!! This had nothing to do with supply and demand, what the market will bare, what reefers are willing to pay, and all of the other lame excuses I've heard. These sky high prices were DIRECTLY attributed to naming, and false claims of rarity. This is why you don't see wide angle photos of zoas and palys anymore on large rocks anymore, yet only super macro pics of 1 to 3 polyps on a plug or 2 inch rocks. This is why I hate names, we got along for many many many years without them and thousands of people sold and traded all over the country this way, but now, many won't even buy something unless it has a name and a history. The reefers, not the stores nor the suppliers were responsible for this hype and sky high pricing. Now because you can pay your car note with a couple of sales of zoas and palys, you now have to have a name to ID them when you resale them and the LINEAGE to help increase the profit you can make off of them. Naming turned into price gouging which equal excessive fragging, premature death from excessive, improper and premature fragging.

I see more concern about names than I do actual care for the corals. I recently spoke with a very very well known book writer whom we all have heard about and this is what he said. He literally hates the naming of zoas and palys for the same reasons I listed above. And this guy is someone we all love. He stated that he can't say it in public as he doesn't want to ruffle any feathers, offend anyone or turn his followers on him.

It truly troubles me that naming, lineage and taking the best photos with a digital camera and eye candy threads, gets more attention than a discussion thread. Just my 2 cents on why naming and lneage are a total and complete waste of time. It's ok if we respectfully disagree. Great discussion BTW.

Mucho Reef

Mucho my friend, once again, I find myself mostly in agreement with you. But offer you a slightly different perspective. Here in Wyoming, corals are relatively rare, period. Like yourself, I can remember the days of paying $15 to $30 for an entire colony of zoas. However, those zoas were always brown or green. We never saw any brightly colored polyps of any type in either the local LFS or the not so local LFS (2 hour drive away). In fact, I can still go to my not so LFS (2 hours away) and buy a colony of zoas for $30 (in fact I just picked up a nice colony of PEs here about a month ago), however, these colonies are still either brown or green - no nice colors. I remember ordering my first frags of orange (probably Eagle Eyes) zoas from GARTH - we spent about $150 for several frags to get lots of different types and lots of different colors, and they all died, except the green and brown ones.

Since then of course, I've ordered numerous zoas off the internet, and yes I often pay pretty high prices, comparatively speaking, but I've also got colors that I would never have aquired without doing so. Unlike yourself I don't have an option to go somewhere to find something different and then offer it in trade. Therefore, I have no choice but to pay the higher prices. Even without higher prices, the shipping to get something to me, is sky high. I pay $70 to $100 to ship anything in from anywhere else, even Denver, which is only a 6 hour drive. Our local airport sucks, so UPS and Fed-ex prices are over the top, and USPS doesn't guarantee overnight to here from anywhere (even here). Now, that all said, I've also never gotten into the crazy prices I see things going for either $600 or more per polyp please! Thats just insane. I got SM before it was named and never paid anywhere near the $150 asking price it jumped up to right after it was named. But I also have over a dozen polyps that are sitting happily in my tank right now, not being sold. Sure, I could sell em and maybe make a bunch of money, could have done it earlier and made even more, but why? I like them, I like the colony look rather than the frag look, so I'm hanging on to them for now. Also, I don't want to deal with the peeps that are out there that will say, "the colony was DOA, ship em again."

To me, the truly said part of our hobby right now is what we've allowed it to evolve into - and you hit the nail right on the head with the part I've marked in red. People would rather show off/look at macro pictures of polyps than ingage in any discussion or learning about the hobby. I see people come in, buy up everything they can get their hands on, and then sale out at some out of this world asking price for their entire collection. Sad indeed.

But, the thing is we don't change anything by complaining about it. The only thing that will change it is for people like you and me (old reefers with the experience) to keep posting up the discussion threads. Many die away without even a single comment or with only a few comments, but some of them take hold and get others involved. Too many have turned away in disgust and thrown their hands in the air. Prices today are going up on everything - I pay over $3.00 for a gallon of fuel, I remember when it was less than $.50 a gallon, but those days aren't ever going to come back. We can't sit around bemoaning the past, we have to forge ahead into the future. Just my $.02 worth.

[EMUreef]

Yup i agree mucho.

Im going to say though i think the naming ONLY benifits one thing and one thing only. Finding what you want or distinguishing a polyp. Now thats the only reason i like a name but i dont like I DONT LIKE the price that fallows it.

Lets say your looking for a polyp, or even selling one. Green center Reds and blues and a whole bunch of other colors with a green skirt, could be anything, could be a couple polyps actually. So instead of searching by listing a whole bunch of colors. You can easily say hey im looking for some candy apply reds or Red Planet acro.

[MUCHO REEF]

I hear you EMU, but here's the issue even with that. I have seen and read dozens, I mean dozens of threads where a morph was named one thing on the east coast and the exact same polyp had a totally different name on the west coast, and it was the exact same polyp !!!! I have seen guys argue like crazy over a name and who named it, yet neither one could even keep those corals alive. I know of reefers who have very expensive cameras and take some of the best pictures, they also know every single name of every single polyp that has a name, yet they have killed more polyps than you can shake a stick at. Thus, the name was more important than the knowledge in even keeping those corals alive. I have gone into LFS and have listened and watched reefers argue over a name..... A NAME. I've seen a few of their tanks and they had so much nuisance algae that the coral wasn't going to survive regardless, but the name was the focus. I have fielded numerous emails and PMs regarding zoa and paly issues. Yet when I have inquired in the past of the tank parameters, the type of lighting the corals came from, the wattage, bulb type etc, lenght in the previous tank, level of placement in the sellers tank, etc, no one can ever answer, but they can tell me the name and who named it. Which is more/most important when it comes to potential mortality of the coral or its longevity?


Want a laugh? Click on this link and read page 1 and 2. Note the difference in all the polyps with the exact same name. Then look at my find.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ht=envy+orange


I would never demean anyone for being into names, I simply dislike them. The names are not universal and as I said before, they came about at the exact same time as the hype and sky high prices.

Much respect that we could discuss this like men. Thanks for the honest feedback my friend.

Mucho Reef

[MUCHO REEF]

I hear you loud and clear Wyrenegade , but I knew of but one store who only received brown and dull green zoas and plays. I had always supported his store as it was a MoM & PoP type of store. I had to tell him frankly that I really wanted to continually support his store, but I wanted red, blue, orange, yellow, purple etc zoas and palys and ask him to try and get some shipped to his store and I'd buy them. Every other store here in Michigan had them readily available, but for some reason he couldn't get them. I even gave him the name and number of several wholesellers he could contact. I ask over and over again and waited for well over a year, but he never once ordered them. His store went out of business shortly thereafter and he was a great guy. I think the problem was the large amount he had to spend on a full order to get the great deals on what I wanted and he wasn't willing or able to do so. My point is this, if your LFS seldom gets anything but brown and dull green zoas and palys, that doesn't add to their rarity or make them rare. Any and every LFS is able and capable of ordering them, the problem is the stipulations by the wholesellers or transhippers to get them. This goes hand in hand with all the hype and high prices. When the supppliers saw what the reefers were now selling these polyps for, that is when you had a cross the board hike in prices. Now the chances of LFS getting colorful zoas and palys in has decreased unless you are willing to spend big money to get those colors. I would think also the lack of available colors in your area might be a regional issue. I don't know, just asking.


I guess we differ on paragarph # 2. You don't have to pay those prices my friend. I refuse to pay anyone those prices. It simply fuels and feeds the fire. I gave some corals away years ago, and last year, the newbie I gave them to called me and tried to sell some back to me for $ 50 a polyps, LOL. Can you believe that? I gave them to him !!!

We agree, it's very very sad.

I wouldn't consider it complaining. Discussion boards are for presenting ideas and opinions even if the differ vastly from the majority or the minority. I would say that I'm simply voicing my opinion on an issue. I feel that my opinion has made an impact as many newbies who never knew about the info I have presented here and on other boards. Many have thanked me and now refuse to pay these prices. Then someone said to me, "Mucho, if you are sooo unhappy with these prices, then why don't you don't something about it". So I did, I gave away over 100 baseball to grapefruit size fully covered zoanthid and palythoa rocks to newbies I brought into the hobby whom could no longer afford to pay for zoas and Palys. That's right, I gave away every single mother colony I had. Again, I'm simply stating my opinion against something, as others have stated their opinions for it.

Thanks for the great discussion BTW.


Mucho Reef

[schminksbro]

In my opinion naming has some value. When a reefer says "I have a Red Planet Frag" I know exactly what he is referring to. If he said "I have a red and green acro" it could be anything. Being that in reality most corals cannot be positively identified by their correct latin names, attaching a "common" name is a helpful tool when buying/selling/trading corals. I have seen many Red Planet corals live and in front of me. If someone were to post a picture of a Red Planet on the internet that was photoshopped to look better than the actual coral I would recognize it immediately. If they were to post the same pic of a "random acro" it is easier to misrepresent what the coral actually looks like.

The trend of selling frag plugs with a couple of polyps has also been a net positive for the hobby. Corals get spread around to a broader number of tanks ensuring their survival as aquacultured pieces. If we adhere to the Mucho approach exclusively (no offense Mucho) aquaculture would be greatly reduced. Let's say for example that a wholesaler brings in a rock with 50 polyps on it and sells it intact to a store who sells it intact to a single reefer. We will call that guy "reefer (a)" That reefer then puts it in his tank and waits for it to reach 100 polyps. He then sells/trades/gives 50 of those polyps to another reefer "reefer (b)" on a single rock. Reefer (b) puts the rock in his tank and waits for it to grow to 100 polyps. While he waits reefer a has a power outage and crashes his tank losing the 50 polyps that he held. Now there are only the same 50 polyps that were brought in to start with and only one reefer (reefer b) has the coral.

Now let's say that reefer (a) had chopped the original rock up into 10, 5 polyp frags and sold/traded/gave 9 of them away. Now the coral is being farmed in 10 different systems. The likelyhood of that coral being lost has been greatly reduced. Now let's take the scenario a little further. Let's say that reefer (a) sold each 5 polyp frag for $50. Each reefer that bought the coral now has a financial interest in distributing the coral. This financial interest has the exponential effect of spreading the coral very quickly which increases supply, reduces demand, and therefore reduces the price. Now the coral is cheap and plentiful as a result of aquaculture. In most cases each reefer that makes a buck on the coral takes the money and improves their tank. Now the coral has an even better chance of captive survival.

As a vendor/manufacture of products related to this hobby I have had the fortune of meeting many coral vendors. I have yet to meet a single coral vendor that got into the business simply to make money. Every vendor I have met started out as a passionate reef keeper who chose to pursuit their "bliss". In other words they took something they loved and made it provide for themselves and their families. In order to do so they have to profit. Profit is not an evil thing. Without profit the hobby wouldn't flourish and grow. In my opinion too many people in the hobby are quick to attack these guys as just greedy quick buck artists. For myself selling frags has allowed me to pursuit the hobby at a level that otherwise I wouldn't be able to afford. Does that make me a bad guy? Does it harm or help the hobby?

[schminksbro]

The putting of one's name in front of a coral name was actually a byproduct of reefers selling/trading corals. If you got a coral from "Joe" and then grew it out and distributed it to others you would say it was "Joe's corals x". The chain just continued from there. If the coral became popular the lineage would lead back to Joe but not by any marketing plan that he may have had. Using an established name for a "similar" coral only serves to muddy the waters and is usually done to increase the implied value. That being said, I can guarantee you that every "Pink Lemonade" in the country did not come from Steve Tyree's personal colony.

so does this mean that if you are going to name a coral you MUST put your name in front of it? because if you just called your monti, chili pepper, couldnt anyone call theres the same thing?