lineage and names?

[jimsflies]

Does that make me a bad guy?

Yes, you are rotten to the core!

I personally buy corals because I like them, not because of the name or who named it. Naming them helps us communicate what it is we have and want.

I tend to agree, the naming thing is ok because it makes it easier for us to communicate. I think the lineage is sort of silly. If it looks like a duck and quakes like a duck....its a duck. The problem comes in when people mis identify a coral....sometimes its a similar coral which is understandable...of course in those cases it could even be the same coral but kept under different conditions. More often than not when a coral is mis-identified it is for the purpose of selling it as something it is not. I think sellers should not be fraudulently selling corals as something when clearly it is not. However, it is ultimately up to the buyer to make sure what they are getting is what they want.

One nice thing about the modern coral swap is that vendors now bring tanks and lights. Buyers can see what they are getting. I used to put a lot more responsibility on the seller to be correct and honest when we relied on a photo while haunched over a cooler full of bagged coral in someone's basement.

With that said, I have noticed a trend with a lot of online coral vendors naming every single coral. Which isn't a problem...except their names are completely random and unresearched. So much so, that when they get the same piece in again, it is posted with a different name. Or if it doesn't sell after a week, they rename it. (Acans are a great example of this IMO.) Clearly this type of thing has nothing to do with helping us communicate, and everything to do with marketing. I don't begrudge anyone needing to make a buck. But this practice undermines the intent and benefit of naming a coral.

[dlhirst]

The common names do save a lot of tongue tied moments. But, then we don't get to say "zooxanthellate", and who doesn't like to say that?

As for the pricing, I do believe that higher prices have likely increased the diversity of corals available. And that has likely increased the interest, nay excitement of the hobbyists. I planted the trees in my yard when they were small. And it amazes me each Spring when I see them having grown. The koi in my pond, the clowns in my tank, and the corals amongst them - all were purchased when small.

I know that no one has ever held a gun to my head and forced me to buy a ricordia. And, until I hear somebody say " $600 for a light fixture? Are you out of your friggin mind?" I gotta believe that coral prices are (for the most part) pretty fair.

[EMUreef]

Yes, you are rotten to the core!

I personally buy corals because I like them, not because of the name or who named it. Naming them helps us communicate what it is we have and want.

This is exactly how i feel jim. I buy what i like. and if it so happens to be a Tyreee super bubble gum black eye pea'd monster than sure ill but it but i dont buy it cause of the name or what came up with it.

[schminksbro]

I hope you are agreeing with Jim's opinion about buying corals and not that I am "Rotten to the core".

This is exactly how i feel jim. I buy what i like. and if it so happens to be a Tyreee super bubble gum black eye pea'd monster than sure ill but it but i dont buy it cause of the name or what came up with it.

[EMUreef]

I hope you are agreeing with Jim's opinion about buying corals and not that I am "Rotten to the core".

woops no forgot to delete that part out lol.

[schminksbro]

Phew!

woops no forgot to delete that part out lol.

[MUCHO REEF]

In my opinion naming has some value. When a reefer says "I have a Red Planet Frag" I know exactly what he is referring to. If he said "I have a red and green acro" it could be anything. Being that in reality most corals cannot be positively identified by their correct latin names, attaching a "common" name is a helpful tool when buying/selling/trading corals. I have seen many Red Planet corals live and in front of me. If someone were to post a picture of a Red Planet on the internet that was photoshopped to look better than the actual coral I would recognize it immediately. If they were to post the same pic of a "random acro" it is easier to misrepresent what the coral actually looks like.

The trend of selling frag plugs with a couple of polyps has also been a net positive for the hobby. Corals get spread around to a broader number of tanks ensuring their survival as aquacultured pieces. If we adhere to the Mucho approach exclusively (no offense Mucho) aquaculture would be greatly reduced. Let's say for example that a wholesaler brings in a rock with 50 polyps on it and sells it intact to a store who sells it intact to a single reefer. We will call that guy "reefer (a)" That reefer then puts it in his tank and waits for it to reach 100 polyps. He then sells/trades/gives 50 of those polyps to another reefer "reefer (b)" on a single rock. Reefer (b) puts the rock in his tank and waits for it to grow to 100 polyps. While he waits reefer a has a power outage and crashes his tank losing the 50 polyps that he held. Now there are only the same 50 polyps that were brought in to start with and only one reefer (reefer b) has the coral.

Now let's say that reefer (a) had chopped the original rock up into 10, 5 polyp frags and sold/traded/gave 9 of them away. Now the coral is being farmed in 10 different systems. The likelyhood of that coral being lost has been greatly reduced. Now let's take the scenario a little further. Let's say that reefer (a) sold each 5 polyp frag for $50. Each reefer that bought the coral now has a financial interest in distributing the coral. This financial interest has the exponential effect of spreading the coral very quickly which increases supply, reduces demand, and therefore reduces the price. Now the coral is cheap and plentiful as a result of aquaculture. In most cases each reefer that makes a buck on the coral takes the money and improves their tank. Now the coral has an even better chance of captive survival.

As a vendor/manufacture of products related to this hobby I have had the fortune of meeting many coral vendors. I have yet to meet a single coral vendor that got into the business simply to make money. Every vendor I have met started out as a passionate reef keeper who chose to pursuit their "bliss". In other words they took something they loved and made it provide for themselves and their families. In order to do so they have to profit. Profit is not an evil thing. Without profit the hobby wouldn't flourish and grow. In my opinion too many people in the hobby are quick to attack these guys as just greedy quick buck artists. For myself selling frags has allowed me to pursuit the hobby at a level that otherwise I wouldn't be able to afford. Does that make me a bad guy? Does it harm or help the hobby?

No offense taken, we are merely discussing.

It seems whenever I make this type of post, someone reads between the lines, instead of just reading the lines. Not getting smart here at all, but I will try to clarify my point again as I think it wasn't clear. Many reefers buy what they like, this is what we have done for 20 years. No one ever needed or ask for a name. If names DID NOT COINCIDE with sky high pricing and excessive fragging, NO ONE, not even I would have a problem. This is my 1st point.

Secondly, When I speak of names, I should have stated that I was speaking solely of zoas and palys. The reasons we never used names, is because we collected for size, coloration and aesthetics, not for potential resale value and mark up. Prior to 2006, before sky high pricing, there was no need for names. WHY ? They all had an equal inexpensive value. You could buy a baseball size rock of anything except maybe crazy blues, covered with polyps, and pay no more than $ 50 at the most $ 60 for a larger rock covered with polyps. Again, this is why we didn't need names. Now, someone decided to make false claims that everything with color was rare, I was here and I and many others saw this. Then they started calling them Limited Editions and gave them names. At the exact same time, PRICES went through the roof. Then someone started chopping up rocks and saying they were doing to "preserve the hobby through aquaculture". But the problem was this, there was a surplus of large polyp rocks EVERYWHERE. This was during a time when nobody even liked or wanted zoas or palys because they grew so fast. When rpices went through the roof, sps tanks came down, and zoa tanks went up. Polyps were not going extinct, yet the claims that we are doing this to spread the wealth became one of the main excuses to chop up every rock larger than 2 inches and sell them for outrageous prices. There is nothing wrong with fragging, the problem I have is with excessive, repetitive, premature and improper fragging. Thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in perfectly healthy zoas and palys have perished in the name of " just spreading the wealth via aquaculturing". My first concern is for the coral and the hobby, not the profits derived from the sales of frags. With these names and prices, every time a new polyp grows on a mother colony, it is whacked off, glued to a plug, photographed and offered up for sale. This is why we have dozens of stories asking, "why did they die". Frag responsibly and when appropriete is all I'm saying.

If you recall, you purchased 2 frags from me a very long time ago. They weren't on frag plugs, they were on 2 inch rocks. Selling frags is a net postitive for the hobby I agree, as long as they are attached properly and timely. It doesn't mean that frags not attached to frag plug or unfragged at all are not good as well for the hobby. I have watched for years now and listened to absolute horrible stories of poylps that were prematurely fragged and shipped for the sack of money, only to have those frags die within days of arrival. I have read, seen and answered questions of "why did all my frags die for the 3rd time". Why would someone continually buy frags not knowing how to even keep them alive. Is this a net positive for the hobby? You referred to my opinions as " The Mucho Approach". I think that was a small slap, but it's ok. It's not my approach at all. Dozens upon dozens of reefers I know personally feel the exact same way. Some feel so strongly about this issue, they have left all the forums, reefing or any public activity at all. Why? They are more concerned about the corals mortality then we are about the potential profits from said corals. Your argument on reefer A and B is great if there were no more or very very few corals on the market, then yes, lets frag when ready, but that is not the case. This is why you have new on line stores popping up everyday selling 1 to 3 polyps all derived from one single mother colony which are in excess. This is why you only see pictures in all the candy threads of tiny macro shot fargs. Where are all the large colony pictures?


It simply amazes me all the reasons that are being giving in defense of keeping these prices how. I hear that many people are shaking in their boots hoping these prices never drop back down to what they have been for 20 years prior to naming. Does anyone care about the corals? Aquaculture can be achieved by simply allowing your corals to grow. Again, fragging is fine, but only when done properly, timely, safely, correctly and not for sky high profits......expecially if one is so concerned about spreading the wealth and preserving the corals.

I see that you manufacture a product relative to this topic. My friend, my replies are not an afront to you or anyone else personally. These sky high prices have run a ton of newbies away from this hobby, and many many experienced reefers with tons of experience and kowledge away from these boards. The very knowledge that you, me and many others might need to help keeping something we love and treasure alive. I don't have a problem with making a profit, no one does. The problem I have is with price gouging and false claims or rarity....and lineage.

Just surprised that every time someone speaks up, out and against these issues, they are labeled as an attacker. I'm stating my opinion against something that someone else might be for, that's all.

At least we are talking, and that's good.

Mucho Reef

[MUCHO REEF]

I was told 5 years ago and again last week, if I had put my name on some zoas and palys when all of this started, I'd be filthy rich by now. Naw, I'll just settle for being a reefer.

[schminksbro]

First off I assure you that my comments were not a slap at all. I have nothing but respect for you Mucho I was just referring to your above post. However I think you are thinking of someone else because I never had the pleasure of buying frags from you. I remember seeing your tank online and wondering where I could possibly find all those nice colorful corals. I have been in the pet trade and specifically this hobby for the better part of 20 years. In my early years of reefing I remember seeing hoards of green zoas in fish stores but almost never anything with color. I knew 1 other person who was into the hobby. At that point reefing was like a "Cult" hobby for only the most eccentric. Information was hard to come by and under gravel or wet dry were the most common ways to maintain a tank. In my opinion the hobby is much larger and healthier now. The internet and forums such as this have made the exchange of info much broader and easier to access. At the same time there is much more info to be had. Equipment has gotten better and successfully growing corals is very common. Farming corals for resale is a relatively new phenomena. It is a young and growing industry. Many, many reefers including myself have grown large colonies of zoas or sps from very small frags. I know I would not have the system and success that I have if it weren't for selling a few frags that allowed me to afford the equipment needed to run my system. In the process I have met many great people and swapped corals and info. I have given away many corals and received many corals for free as well. In almost every case that a coral is introduced to the market at a high price the price comes down very quickly. The only exceptions are when the coral is extremely difficult to keep or grows incredibly slow. Supply and demand control pricing without question. Take Mohawks for example. (I use the name Mohawk because if I say those pinkish speckled zoas nobody wil know what I am talking about) Mohawks hit the market at $50 per polyp. They grew so quickly that the price plummeted to less than a dollar or free in only a few months. I gave mine to newbs because I couldn't afford the real estate. When I sell zoas I sell frags of 3-5 polyps for whatever the market prices for that zoa is. In most cases by the time I have enough to sell the price is $5 per polyp or less on a zoa that was $50 when I got it.

No offense taken, we are merely discussing.

It seems whenever I make this type of post, someone reads between the lines, instead of just reading the lines. Not getting smart here at all, but I will try to clarify my point again as I think it wasn't clear. Many reefers buy what they like, this is what we have done for 20 years. No one ever needed or ask for a name. If names DID NOT COINCIDE with sky high pricing and excessive fragging, NO ONE, not even I would have a problem. This is my 1st point.

Secondly, When I speak of names, I should have stated that I was speaking solely of zoas and palys. The reasons we never used names, is because we collected for size, coloration and aesthetics, not for potential resale value and mark up. Prior to 2006, before sky high pricing, there was no need for names. WHY ? They all had an equal inexpensive value. You could buy a baseball size rock of anything except maybe crazy blues, covered with polyps, and pay no more than $ 50 at the most $ 60 for a larger rock covered with polyps. Again, this is why we didn't need names. Now, someone decided to make false claims that everything with color was rare, I was here and I and many others saw this. Then they started calling them Limited Editions and gave them names. At the exact same time, PRICES went through the roof. Then someone started chopping up rocks and saying they were doing to "preserve the hobby through aquaculture". But the problem was this, there was a surplus of large polyp rocks EVERYWHERE. This was during a time when nobody even liked or wanted zoas or palys because they grew so fast. When rpices went through the roof, sps tanks came down, and zoa tanks went up. Polyps were not going extinct, yet the claims that we are doing this to spread the wealth became one of the main excuses to chop up every rock larger than 2 inches and sell them for outrageous prices. There is nothing wrong with fragging, the problem I have is with excessive, repetitive, premature and improper fragging. Thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in perfectly healthy zoas and palys have perished in the name of " just spreading the wealth via aquaculturing". My first concern is for the coral and the hobby, not the profits derived from the sales of frags. With these names and prices, every time a new polyp grows on a mother colony, it is whacked off, glued to a plug, photographed and offered up for sale. This is why we have dozens of stories asking, "why did they die". Frag responsibly and when appropriete is all I'm saying.

If you recall, you purchased 2 frags from me a very long time ago. They weren't on frag plugs, they were on 2 inch rocks. Selling frags is a net postitive for the hobby I agree, as long as they are attached properly and timely. It doesn't mean that frags not attached to frag plug or unfragged at all are not good as well for the hobby. I have watched for years now and listened to absolute horrible stories of poylps that were prematurely fragged and shipped for the sack of money, only to have those frags die within days of arrival. I have read, seen and answered questions of "why did all my frags die for the 3rd time". Why would someone continually buy frags not knowing how to even keep them alive. Is this a net positive for the hobby? You referred to my opinions as " The Mucho Approach". I think that was a small slap, but it's ok. It's not my approach at all. Dozens upon dozens of reefers I know personally feel the exact same way. Some feel so strongly about this issue, they have left all the forums, reefing or any public activity at all. Why? They are more concerned about the corals mortality then we are about the potential profits from said corals. Your argument on reefer A and B is great if there were no more or very very few corals on the market, then yes, lets frag when ready, but that is not the case. This is why you have new on line stores popping up everyday selling 1 to 3 polyps all derived from one single mother colony which are in excess. This is why you only see pictures in all the candy threads of tiny macro shot fargs. Where are all the large colony pictures?


It simply amazes me all the reasons that are being giving in defense of keeping these prices how. I hear that many people are shaking in their boots hoping these prices never drop back down to what they have been for 20 years prior to naming. Does anyone care about the corals? Aquaculture can be achieved by simply allowing your corals to grow. Again, fragging is fine, but only when done properly, timely, safely, correctly and not for sky high profits......expecially if one is so concerned about spreading the wealth and preserving the corals.

I see that you manufacture a product relative to this topic. My friend, my replies are not an afront to you or anyone else personally. These sky high prices have run a ton of newbies away from this hobby, and many many experienced reefers with tons of experience and kowledge away from these boards. The very knowledge that you, me and many others might need to help keeping something we love and treasure alive.

Just surprised that every time someone speaks up, out and against these issues, they are labeled as an attacker. I'm stating my opinion against something that someone else might be for, that's all.

At least we are talking, and that's good.

Mucho Reef

[Wy Renegade]

I guess we differ on paragarph # 2. You don't have to pay those prices my friend. I refuse to pay anyone those prices. It simply fuels and feeds the fire. I gave some corals away years ago, and last year, the newbie I gave them to called me and tried to sell some back to me for $ 50 a polyps, LOL. Can you believe that? I gave them to him !!!

We agree, it's very very sad.

I wouldn't consider it complaining. Discussion boards are for presenting ideas and opinions even if the differ vastly from the majority or the minority. I would say that I'm simply voicing my opinion on an issue. I feel that my opinion has made an impact as many newbies never knew about the info I have presented here and on other boards. Many have thanked me and now refuse to pay these prices. Then someone said to me, "Mucho, if you are sooo unhappy with these prices, then why don't you don't something about it". So I did, I gave away over 1oo baseball to grapefruit size fully covered zoanthid and palythoa rocks to newbies I brought into the hobby whom could no longer afford to pay for zoas and Palys. That's right, I gave away every single mother colony I had. Again, I'm simply stating my opinion against something, as others have stated their opinions for it.

Thanks for the great discussion BTW.

Mucho Reef

Thanks Mucho, perhaps my use of the word complaining was too strong - I meant no insult, as I truly do respect and for the most part agree with your opinions. I also appreciate the discussion.

I'm afraid that we do have to agree to disagree on paragraph #2. I don't have Mucho Reef living anywhere near me. Unlike you, when I told the local LFS that I wanted polyps with color, they begin to get them in - they then proceeded to bust the frags up into smaller pieces, keep the best piece and charge enough for each piece that was left to pay for the cost (including shipping) of the original frag. I refused to buy their frags, which meant I had to go online to purchase frags with color. Guess what happens then? I see very few people offering to give away frags or colonies online. You and a few others may give things away locally, but for those of use that aren't local, our only option is to pay those prices or go without anything nice. Even when I aquired and grew out several PPE polyps and offerred two and three polyp frags in trade (yes I realize this is part of what you are talking about), I got no takers.

As a vendor/manufacture of products related to this hobby I have had the fortune of meeting many coral vendors. I have yet to meet a single coral vendor that got into the business simply to make money. Every vendor I have met started out as a passionate reef keeper who chose to pursuit their "bliss". In other words they took something they loved and made it provide for themselves and their families. In order to do so they have to profit. Profit is not an evil thing. Without profit the hobby wouldn't flourish and grow. In my opinion too many people in the hobby are quick to attack these guys as just greedy quick buck artists. For myself selling frags has allowed me to pursuit the hobby at a level that otherwise I wouldn't be able to afford. Does that make me a bad guy? Does it harm or help the hobby?

schmink, this part of your post made me smile. On another site, a discussion was started today by another reefer about the fact that many newbies getting into the hobby are starting out with a frag tank, and he asked what was up with that. One of the newbies responded with the quote "I like hobbies that pay for themselves." Now I agree with you, that there is nothing wrong with a little profit and with being able to make a buck. However, if a newbie can get into this hobby, lay out all the $$$ required for a tank and assorted required equipment, purchase corals, and still make enough $$ to pay for the hobby, something is definitely wrong IMO.

With that said, I have noticed a trend with a lot of online coral vendors naming every single coral. Which isn't a problem...except their names are completely random and unresearched. So much so, that when they get the same piece in again, it is posted with a different name. Or if it doesn't sell after a week, they rename it. (Acans are a great example of this IMO.) Clearly this type of thing has nothing to do with helping us communicate, and everything to do with marketing. I don't begrudge anyone needing to make a buck. But this practice undermines the intent and benefit of naming a coral.

Agreed, and it isn't just Acans, zoas and palys are the same. These vendors pay no attention to the guidelines established for naming. While clear and established exist for zoas of the hornet subgroup, you have all kinds of "hornets" now being marketed which do not meet these requirements.

I know that no one has ever held a gun to my head and forced me to buy a ricordia. And, until I hear somebody say " $600 for a light fixture? Are you out of your friggin mind?" I gotta believe that coral prices are (for the most part) pretty fair.

While I agree that no one is holding a guy to anybodies head, I disagree that coral prices are for the most part fair. When you see prices on some polyps starting at $100.00s of dollars, those prices are not fair. The originator of the polyp never paid that for that coral. Nor in some cases did they truly have any expense finding that coral. Tyree for example is sent free corals by various vendors, he reviews them slaps a Tyree name on the coral and sales the first one at auction for a huge profit. After that the vendor is able to sale the same corals for a much higher price, because it contains the Tyree name.

Just surprised that every time someone speaks up, out and against these issues, they are labeled as an attacker. I'm stating my opinion against something that someone else might be for, that's all.

At least we are talking, and that's good.

Mucho Reef

I do agree that many that smartly proclaim "if you can't afford it, then don't buy the corals" are exactly those people who have paid those high prices, and are as you stated quaking in their boots that the bottom might drop out of their prices. I don't care what happens to the price of Space Monster, I never paid $150 for it in the first place, so if it drops to $20 a polyp I could care less. I have an awesome paly in my collection, I can clearly identify it without a doubt as to what it looks like simply by stating that I have it, and by stating who I got it from. I don't have to describe it or post a picture of it, and given that I know were it came from, I don't have to put up with someone telling me I misidentified the polyp or I'm misrepresenting the polyp.

I was told 5 years ago and again last week, if I had put my name on some zoas and palys when all of this started, I'd be filthy rich by now. Naw, I'll just settle for being a reefer.

I think that many in this hobby have wished or dreamed that they could make enough money out of the hobby to be able to pay for this hobby. Unfortunately Mucho my friend, some of us are just not cut out to be able to do so. Someday (when I retire), I'd love to be able to support my hobby with itself, who knows maybe someday I'll be able to. Right now, I'm just enjoying the hobby for itself.