I do not see the logic in your post at all... I made no false claims of rarity... what you and i consider rare are two completely different things...you dont know whats in my reef... you are flat out just being offensive now. there is no need for it.Originally Posted by schminksbro
Moderator
Here is a pic of the colony that bird frag I gave you came from. Unfortunately it won't hold the color under the 10k it was sitting under but it will color up and look beautiful in your display.
Moderator
Easy killer, I was only joking. Many corals are uncommon in the hobby and some are uncommon in the ocean. I get it.
Moderator
I was simply trying to lighten up the thread a bit. I meant no harm.
Now let's get back to your revolution....
Yeah I am disturbing. I was excited, Can anybody be excited about something new, I thought they were cool. Not looking to sell them, A mod here even pmed me asking to buy a frag, You know what i told him???
I told him i would give him a frag for free that i was not going to sell any. You know why i took it down because i felt the thread going the way this one is and i have been attacked before publicly on forums for corals. Purple deaths ring a bell.
You holy people tried to burn me to the cross saying i was a gouger and a rip off artist. I lied i did pull down the pic because of being trigger shy prom the past.
You know whats disturbing is that you are trying to prove a point at my expense. I have a lot of the expensive corals you guys would call gougers. How many pics and threads for sale do you see from me?
Edit....This was directed at The person that brought that up, But it can apply to you too.
Last edited by jimsflies; 02-01-2011 at 07:05 AM.
I am done with this thread its clear that some people will do anything to prove your radical views. The funny thing is that 90% of reefers are on the opposing views as you guys but they won't get involved here because its a hobby not a debating team forum. I don't blame em look what you guys will do to try and prove your views. I could have lowered myself and done what you did to some people here, But i did not.
I choose the high ground. You guys enjoy your bash thread.
Your "Change" will only change reefing to anger and resentment, and it seems is king of this thread.
I've been following this thread and I must admit, I'm struggling with some of the arguments and phrases used. In example, I think there may be some different interpretations of the phrase "Price Gouging". I'm not sure its use in this context is accurate. For reference, here are a few common definitions...
- Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to a situation in which a seller prices goods or commodities much higher than is considered reasonable or fair. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a crime that applies in some of the United States during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits. In the Soviet Union, it was simply included under the single definition of speculation.
- The term is similar to profiteering but can be distinguished by being short-term and localized, and by a restriction to essentials such as food, clothing, shelter, medicine and equipment needed to preserve life, limb and property. In jurisdictions where there is no such crime, the term may still be used to pressure firms to refrain from such behavior.
- Noun - Pricing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available
- Price gouging is a term for a seller pricing much higher than is considered reasonable or fair. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a felony that applies in some of the United States only during civil emergencies.
I don't believe the purchase of a coral (non-essential, multitudes of retailers available) falls under these descriptions.
While I understand and respect the views expressed, I remain steadfast in my belief that our market is no different than any other. Yes it is a hobby, but don't most hobbies have a monetary component to it? (acquire, valuation, appreciation, sale.)
The buyer has all the cards. If you perceive a purchase to be unfairly priced, move on. Over time, the market adjusts and prices settle at the points supported by supply and demand (real or perceived.)
I can recall paying 55 cents for a gallon of gasoline in "the old days." As much as I might wish to do so today, it's unrealistic for many reasons. Although the there are many differences in the comparison, expecting to purchase polyps at price points of of 10 years ago is equally unrealistic. Collection costs have increased, inflation impacts growing maintenance costs (electricity, shipping, licensing, permits, taxes...) the market has increased (demand) as our core knowledge and technology allow more successful reef-keeping...
I whole heartedly agree that coral naming supports higher coral prices. I think most sellers would also agree (hence the explosion of naming) - After all, you expect to pay more for an OEM or "name brand" item than a generic right? Whether the difference is real or perceived "perception is the rule".
Again, for the record - I've never sold a coral.
Last edited by CalmSeasQuest; 02-01-2011 at 08:26 AM.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw
This thread needs to stay on track. Personal attacks/flaming is not going to be tolerated. My finger was on the close button. But I thought I'd give this one more shot first.
CR Member
Wow! Lots going on last night. I whole heartedly agree with Jim. This thread is not/should not be about attacking anyone personally. We're talking about a practice in the hobby that has become common place, and perhaps needs to be addressed by hobbiests, sticking a name/linage to a coral and jacking the price up as a result. Simply for the record once again to make my position clear. I'm not attacking anyone personly. I'm not saying that people can't make a fair profit off of their tanks. I'm attacking the practice, not the individual, not the hobbiest.
To a degree, I agree with this. Price of fuel is higher, cost of living is higher, makes sense that cost of corals should be a bit higher as well. However, that does not justify the actual price jump that has actually occurred in the hobby.
And therein, at least lies the problem. Some have made the point that an aquacultured coral, 3rd or 4th generation is better suited to life in our tanks, and therefore has a higher survival rate, therefore it should command a higher price. For the sake of discussion, I can agree with that. The problem is, that that isn't exactly what is happening. Lets look for just a second at the real picture.
I find a polyp on a transhipment (which I don't do by the way, this is just for the sake of discussion). I've never seen this particular polyp anywhere before. I place it in my tank and for at least a year, I allow that polyp to grow out (1st generation of acclimation). After a year the colony has grown large, I split it up, place it in several different tanks and grow it out (2nd generation of acclimation; technically not true, as the new polyps are all clones of the original, since reproduction is asexual, but for the sake of discussion we'll go with it). I now name the coral by submitting it to one of the recognized coral common name libraries, and sale off some of my 2nd generation polyps. This has taken at least a year, maybe two or more to accomplish. Those corals have now been aquacultured, linaged back to me, and have a name, so I charge a bit more for my frags. Frags go out on the market, people are impressed, so frags sell well and people are asking for more. Meanwhile JPP goes into his local LFS, see a colony of 50 zoas for sale for $29.99, buys it, brings it home, jumps onto the coral common name libraries or his favorite forum, posts up a picture and asks for an ID. Someone says that it looks pretty similar to mine, so JPP carves up the colony into 1 polyp frags, superglues them all to frag plug and starts offering them up as my polyp for $29.99 a frag.
Thats whats really happening in this hobby right now time after time after time. All the arguments for aquaculturing and healthier corals go right out the window in the face of this practice. Retailers are in on it too, as was stated above. They tranship in a coral, take the ones that are nice looking, carve em up, give a name and post em up for sale. They are not being aquacultured, they didn't cost any more money than all the others. Do most of you have any idea how often a poster will go from a please ID my polyp I bought a nice rock of from my local LFS thread to a buy my "Tubs Blue", "Ultimate Chaos", etc. etc. etc.
thread in a matter of mere days? Retailers do it all the time. Just got a new shipment in, check out these great colors, frags available this weekend.
I collect PEs, and I'm always looking to trade for ones I don't have yet.
wow, this has went downhill fast lol. Nothing has really been added, of any value that is, for at least 10 pages. Seriously everyone, it's a friggin hobby. Let everyone enjoy it how they want. This is America, and we are free to do as we please. I honestly thought both sides brought up some really good points. As the thread has gone on, my newbie eyes see a little clearer now by the actions of some. It's cool to be pasionate guys, but some of you have crossed the line and are plain being rude. NO need for that kind of stuff for something that we are supposed to enjoy! Also, very few FACTS have been posted here, most is just people opinons, which we are all allowed to have last time I checked. Everyone needs to take a deep breathe, and realize that other people enjoy the hobby different. That doesn't make them inferior, just different. Embrace the differences and learn from each other. If not, stay to yourself and do your thing with like minded hobbyists, no need for attacks IMHO.
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